Null Talisman on INT Supports

Something I've seen pro players do from time to time and a thing that I've dabbled with once in a while is to buy a Null Talisman with your starting gold on an intelligence-based support like Lion or Witch Doctor. I've found that it really does quite a bit of work on someone like Lion, who already has pretty good base damage (with the talisman, he has like 58 damage at level 1), since you can really zone out enemy heroes in lane with the extra damage. It can also help with your mana pool at the early stages of the game too, but mostly you only care about damage if you can Mana Drain anyone who comes close to you.

So, is building a Null Talisman out of the gate on INT supports a legit move or is it too greedy or gimmicky for you?

Magic Wand is arguably a better item than null in every way on a support tho.

Besides you can't go tango + null with your starting gold, you need to buy either wards or courier. Tango-null is a solo mid build.

Not a fan, how do you afford any of the other team utility stuff that you need? The most I'd ever stretch to is a few Iron Branches or even a Magic Stick.

A standard loadout between two supports would usually be:

Animal Courier
Observer Ward x 2
Sentry Ward

That's already 470 gold, plus you both need regen, possibly to share with mid, so it doesn't leave much room for buying much. Personally, I'd think you'd get much more value from a couple of Clarity potions in terms of the amount of damage you can inflict, for the cost.

I do of course occasionally pick up a Null Talisman on the way to something like Veil of Discord, and on mid int heroes sometimes.

It's decent stats and helps a lot with zoning out the enemy offlaner (+9 dmg).
If boots rush isn't of much use to you as a support grabbing this isn't bad.
However, the teams that do this have a clear 4 and 5 position support. In pubs you do not have that so you usually can't afford boots/null rush at start.

It's only good when you need the hero to solo zone people out, or on someone like Bane whose right clicks and stats are already super good so it makes you amazing at trading and harassing whilst roaming. (More so than you are already).

Nowadays it's a lot less good because of the prevelance of dual lanes. It's very rarely legit in pubs.

It's true that it would add some power to your Right-Clicks and getting extra Stats is always a benefit, but I fail to see it having that much of an impact, even on Supports with 600+ Attack Range. Can you link some games in which you saw it? (I'm way too out of touch with Competetive atm anyway T-T )

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At lvl1, in the sapce of 3 seconds, Lion does:-

52 Damage and does (100 + 15 * (0.01 / 1.7)) == 0.67 Attacks per second, meaning 1 attack every 1.48 seconds, making for 104 Damage in 3 seconds, or 208 Damage in just under 6 seconds

With Null Talisman, Lion does:-

61 Damage and does (100 + 18 * (0.01 / 1.7)) == 0.69 Attacks per second, meaning 1 attack every 1.44 seconds, making for 122 Damage in 3 seconds, or 244 Damage in 5.75 seconds.

With Orb of Venom, since more than a second passes between each Auto-Attack, you deal 6 Damage in between Auto-Attacks and 12 Damage after the last one, so on a Lion with Orb of Venom, you get:-

104 + 6 + 12 == 122 Damage from 2 Auto-Attacks in 3 seconds, or 208 + (6 * 3) + 12 == 238 Damage from 4 Auto-Attacks in a little under 6 seconds.

So clearly, Pros aren't building it for extra Damage alone, and as for the alternative:-

Magic Wand - Burst Regen, especially against spammers and +4 to every Stat.. +19 HP, 1 IAS, + 0.14 Armour (nearly 1% Physical Damage Reduction) but -3 Bonus Damage, -2 Base Damage, -39 Mana.

With a comparable price (only 5 Gold cheaper), I'd rather have the benefit of Energy Charge.

If you're willing to drop the Stats, you can have Magic Stick + Orb of Venom for only 5 Gold more than Null Talisman which gives you the Damage + Regen.

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Honestly, without seeing some of these games, I don't think I'll understand the reasoning behind this Item. Hoping to see something that I'm clearly missing when I watch these games.

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I can hardly see it being effective on a Hero with 400 Attack Range. You're still going to take more Damage from the Creep Wave if the Offlaner isn't horribly out of position. You need at least 550 Attack Range to make use of this, due to Creep Aggro having a Range of 500 (not sure, but I'm sure it's at least 450...more than Bane's Range)

I agree with the arguments above, in an Inteligence support you will need the money for other items more than the utility Null gives you. The only hero with which I consistently buy this is the offlane Enchantress, because it really synergizes well with everything else you already have to trade hits and disrupt the carries farm a lot - and because in that case you won't need mana regen for the entire laning stage, since you will only be using the heal and only when really needed.

Supports that are defensive yet their philosophy of laning is offensive are the ones that build null talisman.

You Lion example perfectly fits in the tenor of definition that I just gave. Lion is a definitive Lane Support that relies on his spell to zone out the offlaner. So he requires:
1. Mana for spells, and
2. Good harass

So you get both of them.
Lion is defensive by the very fact that he secures farm for the fellow laner. His defensive ability comes from the fact that he can Sap a laner's Mana everytime he comes to take a last hit. At level 2, a solo off FEARS a lion, oh so much.



Some notes on null talisman as well:
You see null talisman gives nice bit of stats that are good for any in lane caster. So a caster like venomance can make good use of this item, rather than a wraith band, which does nothing much to boost your manapool. Just imagine the infinite number of wards you can place, or that crucial second Venomous Gale.



Summarizing this, I say go for the null talisman in lae and save up for boots / wand. This is definitely good in meta where fighting reigns supreme and securing lane means so much to the carry that he will thank you all game.

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Personally, I used to NT on a CK earlier, rather than a soul ring. It used to work and at level 6, you could do a whole 3 ability combo easily.