Lion Mid Viable in 6.84?

Well, I just want feedback. This is a build I came up with. I chose Shadow Blade over Blink Dagger because of my focus on ganking, clearing stacks, and going back to ganking constantly after I hit about level 6. If you get a Blink Dagger, then you can't sneak under wards, but you can initiate far better. You need some kind of positioning/ganking item.

Anyway, the build I came up with is:
Shadow Blade/ Blink Dagger Orchid Malevolence Aghanim's Scepter

1 = Earth Spike
2 = Hex
3 = Mana Drain
4 = Finger of Death
X = STATS

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The Meta right now is a whole lot of running around in the opponent's jungle and magic damage cores. Lion can do this well, almost sort of like a Queen of Pain, but not as well as a QoP. The trade-off is less AOE for more singe-target burst and disables. So, better for ganking and getting pickoffs, much like a Lina. If Lina gets nerfed really hard (she will), Lion could be become viable, or even her replacement. But, worse at farming stacks, better at ganking, and can't blow up a BKBed person in a teamfight.

You may argue against the Orchid Malevolence, but if you remember, Orchid is an item that should be gotten as a 1st or 2nd item on INT cores/semicarries who have a lot of burst damage, where rightclicks are a significant part of their damage, and can benifit from more mana regen. These heroes usually farm with their spells using the mana regen, and they benifit from the active while ganking.

Lion, Lina, Storm Spirit, Queen of Pain, Nature's Prophet, Invoker, and Puck are all common Orchid Malevolence carriers, and fit this description quite well. A little while ago, Windranger would've been on this list, but Slasher's Way is the best build now.

the question is why? there are better options to do the same job, like Lina obviously. I cant see a situation in which this would be surperior to the alternatives, kinda like when I play core dazzle. Sure it might be fun and new but not practical.

I mean if you think the hero can lane against Storm, Lesh, Lina, SF and the like the sure. Well technically you can by maxing mana drain really early, but it leaves you low kill potential (For a Lion), and the heroes scale better with levels and gold than Lion.

Like the real question is; Why would you run solo mid Lion when you could run Lina instead? Whose just flat out better at 90% of the stuff Lion would do.

That's ignoring the fact you have no real item scaling outside of Blink Dagger. Ag's doesn't really count since it's just a littl eh.

Also this is semantics but; Lion, Lina, and Puck are not common Orchid builders. You never see the former in a position to build it, and it's outclassed on the other two.

I would like, once and for all, to understand why people are so intent on playing item-independent and level-independent supports as mid heroes.

It's like, with all the overpowered mid heroes in every patch that can almost win a game 1 vs 5, why not play a mid hero that has the same game impact as a support, right?
FailFish.

- Lion doesn't scale with any item that isn't Blink Dagger. Orchid is for right-click heroes, Lion isn't a right-click hero. And Lion has easily one of the 5 worst Aghanim's Scepter upgrades in the entire game IMO. The closest to an impactful second item on Lion would be either Ghost Scepter/ Ethereal Blade, or Force Staff...and even then a support Lion can afford that stuff around 30 minutes.

- Lion is primarily a disabler. Not a nuker. Picking Lion for the burst damage is the worst idea ever, His burst is not that high compared to other heroes. You pick Lion for Hex and Earth Spike ; if you don't, you got the wrong hero.

- Lion doesn't need levels. All his skills are good with only 1-2 points in them. Lion needs level 6...that's it.


If Lina gets nerfed, there are still 10000000 times better solo mids than Lion that focus on burst damage, and that *do* benefit from levels and items. Example : Skywrath Mage. Tiny. Or build Euls on Shadow Fiend. Etc.
Or we'll just see the return of Tinker dota.

http://www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331745994141/dota-2-the-heroes-begging-to-be-buffed-in-6.85

Because apparently Tinker is such an underpowered hero that needs a massive mana cost buff on Rearm so that he doesn't have to go Bloodstone as first item.
(which is an incredibly accurate observation if you ignore the fact that Scythe of Vyse gives 55 more mana than Bloodstone and has 1 million times the game impact of BS)

fcking scrublord casters. I hope Icefrog knows better otherwise it's the return on Tinker dota. Aah, good old Tinker/Void patch, all the good memories.

Is this guy actually that stupid? Reflection is the LEAST of TB's problems... it's an insane anti-carry spell.

Also, it's as if they don't know Doom does Pure damage.

Maaaaaaan, I have a hard job. A hard job indeed

I'd ignore that article; ODPixel, whether or not you like him as a play by play caster, is just really bad at the game. As is his partner evidently.

Also Tinker will always build Bloodstone whilst the item has suicide on it, and the suicide means you don't give away streaks. Because that's the reason the item is bought on so many heroes.

But yeah, changing rearm so that a Soul Ring covers the cost at all levels is silly.

1) You can still walk under Sentry Wards
2) You can avoid walking under Observer Wards by anticipating their positions and changing your path to a Gank
3) If you're a Core, it's going to be obvious that you're either Jungling or Ganking whenever you leave the Lane for more than 5 seconds
4) Using Smoke of Deceit provides a better method of Roaming to your target undetected than Shadow Blade and cannot be revealed by Observers or Sentries
5) You clear Stacks with Earth Spike, not Right-Clicks

Orchid Malevolence is bought on Ganking Mids like Queen of Pain and Storm Spirit to prevent their targets from escaping and to amplify their Damage. You already have Hex and Earth Spike to prevent escape, and a Veil of Discord will give you better Damage than an Orchid for a much lower Cost. If you go Shadow Blade -> Orchid Malevolence, you need 6875 Gold for that. On average that's 12+ minutes for Shadow Blade and at least 25+ for Orchid.

You build it 1st on Ganing Mids or not at all, since it will be useless against a lot of Cores by 25 minutes ( Manta Style, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Black King Bar, etc.)

You have Mana Drain and Hex. Neither the Regen nor Silence are particularly useful on Lion.

I doubt she'll get nerfed into oblivion. She wins Lanes, she Clears Stacks faster than Lion, she Bursts through BKB, she has a strong Right-Click and has higher Burst Damage. Only 2 or 3 of these things at most will get nerfed, she'll still be a more viable Mid than Lion (it's unlikely he will get Buffed as he's still a strong Support).

Beyond the whole "Lion doesn't scale well with farm" and "mid is only being run by a select number of powerful strong laning snowballing ganker carries at the moment", I just have a peeve in the form of a number.

160.

That's the cooldown of Finger of Death. And you need it to get a kill in the midgame. Compared to Lina, it's less than half the time she is able to get a kill. QoP and Storm are both able to gank more than Lion due to superior mobility, and QoP doesn't need . If you're gonna go all-in snowballing midlane ganker, Pudge, Earth Spirit, and Skywrath Mage will fulfill that function much better. The only reason you'd run Lion mid is to gank, he doesn't completely shut down any standard midlaner like Razor or OD would, and he doesn't go mid to farm. It's a nice idea, but he's not the right hero for it.

Guys, why all the flame?

1. Yes, I mentioned that Lion is a worse Lina right now. I said he could see a resurgence in 6.85 if Lina got nerfed, but I wanted to know if he was viable as of right now.

2. Orchid Malevolence gives more damage on Lina than Aghanim's Scepter, amplifies her rightclicks, and also enhances them. Of course, then Laguna Blade doesn't go through magic immunity. It is a tradeoff between more damage, utility, and mana regen vs ulting BKBed people. Still though, buy both. I've done the math, the damage with Orchid Malevolence plus all her nukes is about 75 lower, but when you take into account one or two rightclicks getting amplified, and the fact that it scales into the late game, Orchid gives more damage.

3. Lion scales well with farm. Aghanim's Scepter is busted, Orchid Malevolence amplifies things, and Shadow Blade/ Silver Edge/ Blink Dagger will help you get solo pickoffs, whether you're ahead or behind. Octarine Core is also an option, it gives you that 15 second cooldown on Finger of Death, and it gives at least 706 HP after you use finger. I say at least because you can lifesteal off things you hit in the AoE of the finger.

4. Blink Dagger ---> Hex initiation remains powerful.

5. Unlike Lina, Lion can pick up a Ethereal Blade. Sure their carries will probably buy BKBs, but someone is still getting instagibbed.

6. Why? Because this is the theory crafting part of the forum.



Why can I never theory craft in peace and companionship?