DotA 2 Smalltalk

Oh dang, instead of giving a 'double attack', it ONLY gives a temporary 490 attack speed bonus for that 2650 gold?

Damn, worst item, gg volvo plz fix.

It's not like the going rate for attack speed is 55 AS for 2000 gold or anyth... wait a second...

If you try to prove mathematically that sabre is a better AS item than hyperstone then you're bad at math.

Especially when hyperstone is one of the least cost-efficient AS sources in the game.

Oh hamster, still so naive. You don't want whirling axe spam? You don't want extra strength translating to 200 extra HP for troll?

And then you don't want an extra stack if fervor while you are starting to hit people. Seems like refuting your own theories.

It also looks like you advocate building all damage on troll,Making him the biggest glass cannon ever after clinkz.

You should be looking at what the item does rather than how it does. In item theories, ends justify the means. Getting 490 attack speed means an extra hit, think of it like a critical hit that comes every 5 seconds. Now you say correctly it won't be doing anything once you reach max AS. It doesn't need to! It justified it's price when it gave you AN EXTRA FERVOR STACK for God's sake! And that too when you really need it. It's his coming online item. Not "oh imma melt 5 people at once" late game item.




The moment you hit level 16, just sell the damn thing and get your mkb or crystals or whatever you need to replace it.

Why do you build aquila and helm on him? It solves armor issue gives lifesteal and provides mana regeneration to troll who wont even have mana to TP base if he needed to load up his mana. Aquila gives some stats and nothing more. It is easily replacable come midgame.


You still havent tried it, have you?

Getting more hits in and attack speed are not the same thing

Not siding with anyone here but the slow is also pretty good for Troll Warlord I know it seems negligible but while playing with Sven the slow cam in pretty handy.

For this thread not to turn into Kyfroid theories, here's an interesting challenge.

Prove me (if you can) that the new Abyssal Blade isn't viable on only 2 heroes in the game.

In other words, name one hero that isn't Anti-Mage or Spectre, on which abyssal isn't utterly outclassed by Scythe of Vyse in every possible situation.

Hell, even on AM or Spec, I'd sell abyssal to buy sheep if 6-slotted.

Bristleback?

Naturally builds into Vanguard, naturally built into Basher because he likes the lockdown, and isn't pressed for needing to buy a right click item. Plus, since he doesn't buy Blink, and BKB piercing stun has a little more value because you can't jump initiate.

And before you say it, not I don't think the heroes actual viability affects whether the item is good on the hero or not.

It's also going to be situationally good on short range ranged cores dealing with BKB carries. Not as good as it used to be, but still not awful.

This is another one of those things where it's not really a fair equivalnency, Hamster.

From a high level overview, yes, Abyssal Blade and Scythe of Vyse are two items that provide a good deal of lockdown on a single target. Vyse has a better range and is a longer duration crowd control true, but isn't a permanent stun and, get this, can be removed by Lotus Orb and other Dispels where Abyssal blade's stun cannot. There's also the fact that Abyssal goes through Black King Bar where Hex doesn't.

It's also important to look at their build up before declaring that the two items are the same and should be compared in some futile challenge to change the mind of a person who already has their mind made up. Scythe of Vyse is incredibly expensive and is not an easy build up at all, with Mystic Staff being one of the most expensive single items in the game, and Ultimate Orb not being much better. Abyssal on the other hand builds from two items that are assembled from cheap components and provide some measure of usefulness on their own besides providing raw stats: you're not going to get a lucky bash on a tp-ing enemy with a Void Stone in your inventory, but a Skull Basher, now that's another story.

This leads the Abyssal Blade to be a natural extension on heroes that buy Vanguard or Skull Basher, and one that can be picked up relatively early in the game as opposed to Scythe of Vyse. Why not get one on Lifestealer who can use the Vanguard early to sustain in the jungle and farm as a lower position core? Or on an Ursa who typically buys Blink Dagger and can initiate with a blink-stun to burst an opponent down before a fight begins? Why not get one on your off-lane Bristleback if they have the money, or Axe? Heck, why not on Timbersaw so he's not completely neutralized by BKB once the late game rolls around?

As with anything, it's a game by game scenario: if your hero synergizes well with the additional benefits of having a Scythe of Vyse, sure, you'll probably get that 9 times out of ten. But against an Omniknight or a Brewmaster that can instantly dispel the hex and make it meaningless? You may want to reconsider. The game doesn't exist in a theoretical vacuum, after all. You have to adapt if you want to rise above.

I am shaky about trying to convince you otherwise when you word your "challenge" like that but... might as well try.

Bristleback, because buildup and easier access to an active stun with stats that are more relevant to the hero. Timing window is important on BB, so this is much better for him to snowball into victory than scythe.

Juggernaut, because 1.4 BAT, he doesn't benefit much from Scythe when he's actually omnislashing, and he gets mana regen from Battle Fury usually. Plus, if you really want to initiate with Jugger, you'll need a Blink, a Scythe without one will not really get the job done.

Centaur Warrunner , naturally gets a blink so he can use it to initiate, easily fits into a Vanguard, he has respectable attack speed from AGI to get procs, and it gives him a way to do something to heroes that are magic immune.

Night Stalker, another hero that fits well with Vanguard, and has a natural high attack speed, so, Abyssal suits him much better, and like BB, a timing window based hero. If going full lockdown, he can pick up Scythe in addition to it afterwards.

Alchemist. 1.0 BAT, so the passive is actually good on him, and if you're an initiator, you're gonna get Blink or Silver Edge anyway.

Clockwerk, can get right into combat, kinda doesn't do very much if enemies BKB and hit him, so Abyssal can be useful for that, mainly because the item actually makes him tankier, and its useful for stunning whoever it is you initiate on.

Chaos Knight when dealing with magic immune heroes that are a threat to him in combat (mainly Sven).

Sure, Bristle's viablility has nothing to do with that, it's not the question.
Just...
Okay he naturally builds Vanguard. It's far from being the only build on him, but it's a good one.
But Skull Basher? What's the point? He doesn't need the bash on top of his slows. It does cancel TP scrolls, but Bristle is mostly about 5-manning anyways, not solo killing.

But again, how is Scythe of Vyse not better?

Like how is rushing abyssal better than going, say, Crimson Guard into Scythe of Vyse? Bristle has pretty big mana issues and really benefits from mana regen, just as well as HP regen.

Abyssal is actually way more dependent on blink initiation than sheep is. Abyssal is melee range, and on a kiteable hero like Bristle with no mobility, there's a big chance he can't abyssal anything. That's why I put AM and Spec as only good abyssal users : they both have a way to jump heroes that ignores BKBs, so they can actually stun through BKB. On heroes like Riki or Phantom Assassin, their blink doesn't go through BKB in the first place, so the fact that abyssal active goes through BKB is mostly irrelevant and sheep is better.

Essentially just compare
1) Bristle with Vanguard and Scythe of Vyse (7800 gold)
vs
2) Bristle with Abyssal Blade and Ultimate Orb (8500 gold)

(ultimate orb is just there to balance gold so comparison is fair)


1)
- Vanguard HP and damage block
- ultimate orb stats
- infinite mana
- 3.5 second 800 cast range disable on a 25 second cooldown


2)
- Vanguard HP and very slightly improved damage block
- ultimate orb stats
- +10 strength and damage
- 15 HP regen
- bash
- 2 second melee range disable on a 35 second cooldown


The abyssal route isn't even better stats! It's just 10 more strength, that's it...which is mostly covered by the price difference. The vanguard part of abyssal is good, but the rest?
I mean, when you say "the vanguard part of an item is good", that's when there's something seriously wrong with said item...

I really hope we don't just ignore that this discussion was started because Hamster couldn't rebut Kyphoid's point about Echo Sabre on Troll. I just... wanna make sure that doesn't get lost. :D