Commonly build items that are actually bad on heroes.

The S&Y thread made me think about this. 
A lot of items are very commonly built on certain heroes, but very often these items are terrible on them. So i thought everyone could name the items that people often build, but are actually bad in your opinion. Ofcourse say why you think this, so you can persuade them not to get these items anymore. 

There are some usual suspects, like vanguard, S&Y, shadow blade, aghanim scepter, bloodstone and radiance. 

These are some of the item choices that bother me most: 

'Vanguard is appearently the only item that gives survivability.' People tend to get this item on initiators, like clockwerk, even though there are far more usefull items who's components make you tankier. A point booster with ogre club is quite some HP. And peope seem to forget how much longer a casual platemail makes you. These items can be completed in far more usefull items like shiva's and scepter. Or just get a casual vitality booster to build into a heart later. 

Even worse is getting it on heroes who need some tankyness like razor or viper. Who can get other items to tank up. Even worse is getting it on batrider, dark seer, kunnka, night stalker. Heroes who need their core items that actually do something, or damage.
Still the worst is getting it on phantom lancer, no comment
The item does have its place, i situationally get it on heroes like slardar, or maybe bristleback, just becouse it really agrees with their playstyle. In a sense vanguard is a mekanism for heroes with low mana pool. So if you want the regen, just make a mek intead. 


'Why do people get a battlefury on these? The usual suspects are: bounty hunter, juggernaut. Battlefury is a farming item, bounty hunter and jugger are not hard carries and they dont flash farm with it like anti mage. 
So why do so many people get it ALL THE TIME. Even when they are not farming that much. Then if you are lucky will get it before the 30 minute mark. 
Even on faceless void and phantom assasin it is not an item you should get everytime. Cleave is good on void but usually you just want attack speed, and phantom assasin often needs items to fight like BKB and basher. 

Radiance: bloodseeker, dark seer. 

Another farming item. People seem to get this item on chasing heroes for some reason? Rushing it on either heroes hampers their early game, since you will need to AFK farm for atleast the laning phase. And after that you still need your core items. Getting it late is not that great either since it actually doesnt give that much damage. 

If you farm this item on doom it means that you just spent 20 minutes farming, thus leaving your team 4v5. Or you are constantly walking around with no little HP or armor. 
Getting it on heroes like bristleback or weaver means you give up your entire possibility to snowball, and give your enemies a lot of room. 
Also, enigma with radiance, wtf? 

Shadow blade: viper and gyrocopter. 
I just dont get why you would get a shadow blade on them, it gives viper no HP or armor and it is a bad damage item for gyro. And besides, why would they need the invisiblility? Just get a BKB so you can teamfight. 

Aghanim scepter on hard right click carries or bad improvements. Gyrocopter, faceless void, luna, natures prophet and outworld devourer. 
Scepter gives the same stats as an ultimate orb and a point booster, please realise that. It also takes up a valueable item slot that carries really need. 
You dont want to give up tp scrolls for 10+ to all stats. 
It also sounds great on doom but actually isnt. Spend that money towards a refresher orb if you like dooming. 

Still it is great on some utility carries who are not expected to carry the game on their own like razor, viper or juggernaut. 

(tiny with scepter drooolllllll jummie) 

Since when Battle Fury is bad on Juggernaut ? I hope you know cleave works while Omnislashing, and it's never a bad idea to rush it with him. About Radiance, it's just situational, having the power to farm it early is really nice, tho sometimes there are better items, but still acceptable in some cases, and having it on Doom doesn't mean being useless, if farmed in the right time, it can let you snowball easily with your AoE spell + DOOM.

Nothing to say about Shadow Blade, works fine in pubs, so whatever are your arguments, it doesn't change anything.

Aghanim's Scepter is fine for Nature's Prophet, outworld devourer, and even Faceless Void, never underestimate a void with a 60s CD Chronosphere. Buying it as Gyrocopter isn't as bad as you think.

Well tbh most of what you said is kind of false for me, except for vanguard, other items are just suitable for their situation.

There aren't that many truly bad builds or items (although they do exist and you do see them), the biggest problem is usually that people make "inappropriate" builds. For example Battle Fury Juggernaut - yes, it is a legitimate build, but very situational. If they've got a harder carry who builds one and farms reasonably well then it usually fails.

Same when you see a lot of AFK junglers going Hand of Midas when the opposition is stacked with gankers and early pushers - it's not appropriate, because your team will deep in the do-do by the time the payback period is over, even if you don't get ganked to death in the meantime your team probably will.

I think a lot of the problems are habitual - people see xyz pro player do something, so assume it will always work (when it's dependent on the game situation, allies, opposition picks etc). Or when they're learning they have a lot of success with a particular setup so always try to use it. Generally it's lack of understanding of what else is going on in the game, and inflexibility when it comes to adapting to the situation in hand.

Vanguard!!! MY SWORN NEMESIS!!!

...although I have to admit, there are some uses for it. I always feel that an Armlet of Mordiggian is better on a Slardar though.

In terms of Farming Items, a Hand of Midas is much better on Doom Bringer, it will pay for itself faster and get you more Exp as you use it, giving you a faster lvl 16. A Radiance will take significantly longer to Farm and even longer to pay for itself, the Damage may seem appealing, but all the ohter Team has to do is Stun you, then run away. If you want a Snowballing Item, then get Dagon. Yes that's right! Dagon!!! (inb4 Pu12e) Combined with Lvl? Death it gives you amazing Burst Damage to take out your target before they can even retaliate. 20% + 675 Magic Damage is nothing to laugh at before 20:00.

It may work fine in Lower Tier games, but as you go up, you'll find there are people who buy Sentry Wards, Dust of Appearance and Gem of Truesight when needed. You have to weigh up your options and ask yourself if there isn't an Item that can make you stronger if you're going to be detected easily.

I'm not sure why you think Aghanim's Scepter is good for Outworld Devourer, it's easy to see how bad it is with some simple DOTA Math.

The Damage increase from a Mystic Staff == 10 * 25 == 250 Dmg
The Damage increase from Agha == 1 x (OD's Int - Target's Int) + (Dmg Multiplier x Int Boost)

The Hero with the absolute lowest Intelligence would be either Phantom Assassin or Troll Warlord at 37 Int at lvl 25 compared to OD's 105 Int. Therefore the highest Damage increase you can get on a single Target from Aghanim's Scepter would be :-

1 x (105 - 37) + (11 x 10) == 177

Mystic Staff costs 2700 Gold and increases Sanity's Eclipse's Dmg by 250 (not to mention the other benefits)
Aghanim's Scepter costs 4200 Gold and increases Sanity's Eclipse's Dmg by 177 at the most. Usually, it will be significantly less than that.

Agreed with a lot of what you are saying OP. Vanguard IMO is the worst item in dota, and there isn't a single situation where I'd buy one.

Battlefury, I would only consider on AM. He's the only one that can flashfarm well enough to make it worth the cost, but even then he should skip it against lineups that are set up to win early. I never buy it on Jugg, simply because it doesn't give you the early boost that Drum/Yasha gives you (and Jugg needs to make his impact early).

Radiance isn't necessarily bad, it's more that most of the radiance buys I see are preceded by a midas. It needs to be rushed and you need to have freefarm in order to make it viable. I had a recent game where I had 13 min radiance as Doom, and even then I probably would have benefitted more from a 13 minute AC (The opposing Luna had more impact than I did until about 45 minutes in, despite me having ~250 more GPM). IMO it's very situational and really only PL and Spec are well suited for it.

Shadow blade gets bought in pubs because the player doesn't think the enemy will buy dust/wards. It gives heroes like SF/Alch decent initiation, but apart from that I don't think too highly of it.

I think a lot of the issue has to do with Valve's "suggested" item builds. Aghs is listed as core for Gyro, for example. I think a lot of people come in and just blindly build what they are told, even though it's obviously a bad choice.

Aghanim's Scepter depends a lot on the hero - there are plenty where it doesn't make much sense (usually carries) - but it's fantastic on others - e.g. Clockwerk, Chen, Lich, Ancient Apparition or Dark Seer. Usually it's where it brings the ulty cooldown to a nice low number, or the effect is so good that it's worth having.

Sure battlefury cleaves on ommnislash, but how much cleave are you going to hit? Its not like a sleight of fist that you can use on creeps, spam, and its also slower. Everyone is going to spread out anyway as soon as you start.

The problem with radiance on doom is that you will hardly have other items, and very often you cant afford to contribute that little.
Also it is just plain bad on dark seer and bloodseeker.

Scepter in NOT good on outworld devourer. That is a plain and simple fact. It ups the multiplier from 10 to 11. Do the math. You really dont want to slow your hex, bkb or refresher down for that.
And could you explain why scepter is good on gyro? Imo global range is not as good as it sounds. And it only gives 75 damage.
Void is much too item dependant to use a scepter on. If you rush scepter you wont have enough damage, and if you get it late game the enemies respawn timing will be longer then 60 seconds. In my opinion it is just way to much cost for the benefits.
For prophet i would also prefer to have an orchid or hex instead of scepter. A nuke improvement is not that great.

Im not saying shadow blade is bad. I just say you could get better items on viper or gyrocopter, they dont have any suprise stuns like a dragon knight or suprise DOOM like Doom.

So i dont think most of my posts are false.

Vanguard: in my opinion it's only good on Heroes with on-attack abilities like Axe, Bristleback and even Legion Commander to an extent (though she doesn't really need it because of Moment of Courage/ Press the Attack). It's also a legitimate item on hard carries since now you can't rely on Tranquil Boots anymore for sustainability: people usually go for a quick Ring of Health on BF carries ( Anti-Mage) or just get a fast lifesteal item ( Gyrocopter, Troll Warlord etc.) but I think the Vanguard is sometimes worth it. It pairs well with the Soul Ring and is pretty decent on Chaos Knight, Ember Spirit, Doom and even Juggernaut. I don't like it at all on Kunkka and Night Stalker though, they really need a Lothar's/Armlet.
Oh, on ranged Heroes a Mekansm is almost always better: I'm talking about Viper, Razor, Outworld Devourer and the others (I even made it on Weaver once!).

Sange and Yasha: a chasing item. One of the best items for Heroes with no gap closers and burst/built-in damage ( Razor, Ursa, Troll Warlord, Lifestealer...). I really think it's worth its price - especially on STR Heroes - but there are very few Heroes that benefit from it.

Shadow Blade: ****py item if used for escaping (in which case the "racecar" builds are better) on, say, Drow Ranger and Sniper and even worse for initiating with Heroes like Ursa because you could pick a Blink Dagger for a lower price. But, it's a good snowball item: Tusk (literally), Gyrocopter, Alchemist, Wraith King and even Bloodseeker can make the most of it if gotten very early on (~12-13 minutes?).

Battle Fury: really bad on BH and pretty terrible on Jug (newbies pick it because it's suggested), but it's really nice on Anti-Mage or Alchemist. About Phantom Assassin and Faceless Void, competitive players are experimenting build regarding Drum of Endurance and a quick Black King Bar that usually work better than a BF unless you can farm it by ~16 minutes.

Radiance: I laugh really hard when a fed enemy Bloodseeker picks it up instead of something else, it's like he wants to see if your team can recover from such a loss. It's a suggested item by the way, so same thing as BF on Bounty and Jug.

Aghanim's Scepter on the Heroes you listed: terrible; same for Puck I think. I guess it's suggested in the item section?

Bloodstone: either suggested or part of "old" snowball builds. The latter is the case of Storm Spirit: nowadays I think a quick Orchid Malevolence is better, even though the Bloodstone is still legit. I just hate when people don't disassemble their Arcane Boots when building it, but I kinda like this item.

No Dagon yet?

Going to ignore the items everybody said (maybe except Vanguard, hate that item) and I'll list:

Soul Ring, Ring of Aquila, Dagon, Vanguard and Mask of Madness.

I see Soul Ring a lot in pubs in my area. Now I can understand Soul Ring for SOME heroes like Tinker and [{Skeleton King]] because it synergizes well with their kit, but I have also seen it on some Naga Sirens, Batriders and even on some Axes.

Ring of Aquila is nice on paper, taken on AGI carries but it is costly for what it does and some people just love using it on heroes such as Sniper and Troll Warlord. People see it as a good early game extension to Wraith Band but imo for most heroes the Wraith Band is enough. Only hero I would agree seeing this on is Weaver.

Dagon is... well, Dagon.

Vanguard imo is not good on any hero as of now. Mekansm, Blademail or even just a plain Vitality Booster are all better relative to their costs and effects.

Mask of Madness is something I see a lot on squishy heroes (ironically) and while I would be fine seeing it on heroes such as carry Abaddon and Sven, I hate it when people build it on Riki and Sniper.

Vanguard well...you actually get +1 health regen and the extra damage block "for free" (ie. no receipe and on top of the individual items). The problem with it really is the lack of scaling/upgrade options - it's taking up gold/space for a much lesser item than the alternatives late game.

Ring of Aquila I really like. It's great on agi heroes who need some extra mana regeneration when you're not gonna want Arcane Boots on them - likes of Razor, Weaver, Luna etc. Often get it on Venomancer and Vengeful Spirit too, possibly even with arcanes. Yeah ok, not heroes like Sniper who don't need the mana.

It can even be worth looking at on other support heroes who don't really want the agility. The thing is that it's VERY space efficient, and easy to build (most expensive component is 325), you can disassemble it and upgrade to a Vladmir's Offering late game. If you're carrying Observer Ward, Sentry Ward, Boots of Speed and a Town Portal Scroll that only gives you 2 inventory slots to play with - a Bracer and Ring of Basilius would leave you no space at all. 57hp vs saving 40 gold and an inventory slot.

Dagon - yeah often abused and inappropriate, but very effective on the right heroes ( Tinker, Nyx Assassin etc). Sometimes worth a shout against squishy teams anyway.

Shadow Blade - also regularly abused and misused. The invisibility in itself is not an escape against a half way decent team, good map awareness + move speed + invisibility is. The worst is seeing people build it when they have heroes like Riki, Bounty Hunter etc on their team.

Bloodstone I really like, but yeah it's for particular heroes only, generally those who are far more interesting in mana regen and health pool than right click, and have spells they can spam hard. E.g. Leshrac, Storm Spirit, Death Prophet etc. The fast respawn can also be awesome.