6.84 Ember

The issue with safe laning him, is that you don't get as easy levels, and you are definately a hero who wants levels more than farm initially. That's another weird thing about him, is that he suffers when he doesn't get a good start, and yet he can still do a lot of things so long as he stays on par with levels. He just suffers for his poor start after his peak has passed.

The reason you buy Drum of Endurance, and why I'd till want to, is because it is literally perfect on Ember Spirit. It is a mid-game brawling item that gives a little bit of everything. And Ember Spirit wants all it gives, he wants the HP a lot, he likes the mana, he loves the move speed. And when you don't exactly need a damage item for the mid game because of your skill set, I can't argue against it that much.

I could agree with Maeslstrom after Drums tho. Like, you get it to improve your farming rate and make you a better split pusher during your down period, keep you relevant in fights for longer... And then transition into the same BF Crit build... Hmmm. I kind of like it.

@Dimony - You still want to transition into BF, because the fact remains 6 slot Ember in the late game with a BF or two, a crit or two ect ect is still one of the most powerful late game forces in DOTA just before high ground defence alone. Like, Ember's 5 and 6 slot is amazing. It's getting there that's the issue.

And again, I think he's not popular because a) He's fragile as anything, and theres way too much burst damage/control for him this meta. Like, SF and Leshrac blow through flame guard in seconds, heroes like Tusk and Bloodseeker make him suffer because of the physical burst and the silences. Earthshaker Disruptor and Lion all hurt him because of massive amounts of CC (Or just really good CC).

It's just... despite being a midgame meta, there's so much there that hurts him that he's just underwhelming. Especially because they transition more smoothly than him in most cases.

Mael after Drums is a late Mael unless you snowball really hard but then why would you need Mael at all if you can get a fast Deso/Crit/Bf.

What's the problem with getting BF as a 4th/5th slot? If you failed to take rax in midgame with your advantage, you can take it by fast creepwave clearing, but as a damage item it is really inferior to Daedalus(unless playing vs illusion hero or with Magnus/Enigma etc) and Mael gives you enough farming speed for midgame.

Lesh actually deals constant AOE damage rather than bursting stuff down, so he can't deal with Flame Guard quickly, and even then it's 375 bonus HP vs casters. And he is fragile himslef before he gets Soul Booster so Ember can deal with him fairly well. Bloodcyka is easily kited as long as Ember doesn't get silencer with Blood Rite.

It's not like he is supposed to tank initiation spells like Blood Rite or stuff anyway, ideally you want to ball in after the first shots have been fired.

The problem with getting battlefury 4th is the risk of never getting it.
As said previously ember can fall off like a brick if he gets behind. And maelstrom is also one of those items that falls off like a brick. You dont benefit from its upgrades and as soon as you get it its at its peak and never gets better because the items scales with attackspeed and its magic damage. Cleave scales with damage and crit.

There is also very little discussion possible about drums, he just needs them so bad, and the situations where you can skip them are very situational. Also i dont really see the need for RoA. You get the manaregen from bottle since you can get ez refills by using TP spirit to base and back. And he wants more straight manapool then sustained regen early on because when you get into a skirmish you need to use all your spells at once.
Hes not like luna/PA/slark in that regard. They just use one or 2 low manacost spells, and also have the ability to use it on the offlaner to harass him at bit when farming.

It's a late Maelstrom yes, but I still feel like Drums are more important, because of the stats. You arent that evasive at the period of time you hit one power peak, because you'll only have like 1-2 points in SoF, so you need the raw HP, even if it's just casual Bracer. Maesltrom after that still seems fine to me, because it's not thaaat late.

I mean, I'm talking about BF as a 3rd item, because that' the point in time you have max SoF, and thus the depush makes going high ground really hard against you. Which is something you want from an Ember Spirit. Plus, the combination of the two farming items then means you accelerate into you 6 slot even faster, which is great because as I said Ember's 6 slot is terrifying.

Lightning Storm and Split Earth and one Pulse Nova pulse blow through Flame Guard in a very short time. Like, you can argue that it's hard to hit Split Eart if you time SoF well, but it's still chancy. Plus any kind of stun combo and you will kill ES in seconds.

Essentially, I think the hero just needs to get buffed. Not so he's as good a hero as he was at introduction, but something to make him better. Something interesting. Maybe something to make Fire Remnant actually worth the extra points beyond the first, because it really doesn't feel it in most games.

EDIT; And the only time I think you ever skip Drums is if your mid game is that bad that you just get nothing done in the midgame and you have to get a faster BF to hit your late game timing sooner.

Edit: Forgot to add, if you go Mael, it's better to leave chains at level 2 or 3 depending on how fast you will get it. And with any build I personally like to get a point in SoF at level 4 just in case, it sometimes really helps, especially in lane.

I don't think drums are needed on ember... you just have to play very carefully and you are fine (leaving remnants to TP to, knowing when to back off). Positioning in fights is very important too. Ember is squishy but insanely elusive (kinda like puck).

I don't really like maelstorm because for 1600 gold more you have a bfury which is better for farming and fighting. If I will only buy it if I'm having a really bad (or I know I'm going to have one) so I don't end up with bfury parts doing nothing.

My standard ember build will go something like this:

Starting items, into bottle, into RoA, into phase, into first bf, into crystalys, then back for second bf, then finish Daedalus, then after that I might get deso, or skadi, or some uam that works with sleight of fist

It's a quirky build, I know, and I'm sure someone will hate me for not finishing Daedalus earlier, but it works very well for me, and I have only lost ONE out of 8-9 matches with it so far.

i have played LOTS of Ember a few months ago and he indeed is a weird hero. Altho he is a melee hero, you need pretty good positioning and decision making for him to work.

I have tried running him as both, mid and safelane farmer. His problem is - as said several times already - that he is a weak laner but still is very level dependent. Once he hits level ~10 however, he is a force to be reckoned with. Imo he is a fantastic ganker with serious snowball potential...which is why i dont really like him as a pos1. On the other hand, he has big issues with most midlaner, which puts him into a weird position.

I think drums are a solid first pickup on him, since all he needs are levels and a wee bit of tankiness in the midgame. Once he gets ahead, finding farm isnt really the issue.

Regarding his playstyle during teamfights i found, that you have to play like the biggest ***** there is. If you are too close to the enemy team and get hit by just a single CC you are done for. Keep your distance, spam your W + Q combos and ONLY use your remnants aggressively when you are 100% sure, you can get a kill.

Pub meta is a pub meta, they will just copy (nearly) everything pro players do and pro players do not necessarily favor ember now, but that doesn't mean the hero is weak. Look how long it took Huskar to break into competitive scene, and finally he did it even though he pretty much didn't change at all for a long time.

The thing with ember is that against competent players he can only be played as a safe lane farmer, because he will get rekt by most mid laners (lesh, sf etc). Generally I see this patch as a nuke heavy patch, usually when I pick ember I will find myself playing against so many nukes that flame guard feels like nothing. That means I just had to adapt my build and play more like an anti mage.

That means changing phase boots to power treads, and thanks to that change I can completely ditch drums and get much faster battle fury. Then there are multiple choices, but usually its daedalus, manta and skadi. I do NOT like idea of bkb on ember spirit mainly because you can dodge most things with your mechanical skill (if you can't then git good or choose another hero). Instead I like to tank up my ember because unlike bkb, stat items will help you both against nukes AND physical damage, allowing you to manfight carries and not be a 1.5k hp *****.

He's very strong if he can get/maintain a lead and/or snowballs. He's pretty ineffective without it though for all the reasons mentioned. He can be fuggin horrible to play against if he's got Crit/Deso/Etc later on and you're lacking lockdown.

I played a ranked yesterday - him and Lion on their safelane versus Slardar and me on Dazzle. We gave him a really hard time because of the physical damage making Flame Guard pretty useless. With a bad early game he never really got going, was mostly just annoying trying to take high ground.