New Alchemist build.

I've seen this game. That's something completely different from what we're talking about here : this is the Mekansm first Alchemist. He went Mekansm into Sange and Yasha into Assault Cuirass into Black King Bar. He didn't buy a farming item and went full push. But then his farm was extremely low for an Alch and even at 50 minutes he still wasn't 6-slotted.

This is actually completely different from what I'm defending. What I'm saying is that you should rush a farming item, farm as fast as you can, get 6-slotted at 35 mins and then end the game at that very moment before your hero drops off. That's not what Alch went for in this game.

Here we're talking about what farming build to go for on Alch, so mek first alch with no farming item is yet another (unrelated) topic.

Well yea he went for the somewhat utility alch.
I see what you are saying tho, but I highly doubt you can get a bfury/mjollnir, abyssal, skadi, BOTs, AC, MKB or whatever you need in 30 mins. A build like that requiers 1000 gpm From min 1 which isn't possible if you aren't stomping hard. Out of all the alchs in pro games, very few got 1000+ gpm in 40-50 min games with a build that only focuses on farming everything.
I do agree that if you go for fighting items, you will be THE strongest hero on the map at 25-30 mins. But that doesn't mean you will be able to end the game.

Can I contribute to this discussion pointing out this article?

http://www.dotabuff.com/blog/2015-10-26-turning-lead-into-gold--the-alchemist-resurgence

I haven't read it yet but appearantly it's exactly about the builds that you've been talking about.

On a somewhat related note, here's le typical new-meta Alch in ranked.

He didn't get the first rune( Slardar took it, mb by accident) in a 4 vs 4 fight and went back with 1/4 of hp left but other than that his supports literally wiped his *** mid - Chen sent his Cyka Stormcrafter mid to lightning spam me out of the lane(this **** was so annoying), helped him secure runes(btw he got like 3 Bountys top in a row))) ) with creeps or personally, they even drew offlane Warlock with ulti to kill me and try and take mid T1. Lina with Haste Rune also visited me once but she was dumb enough to show up on my hg with half hp missing so I just nuked her down. All this at the same time with Magnus feeding offlane 2 times and crying for gank, Warlock laning pretty normally against their trilane(though Silencer and AA tried to gank Alch after he got 6 a couple of times for some reason). Oh also a ****head AM who put a mid icon after me and cried that "this ****** that took my mid will lose to alch and feed". I had to mute all of them 15 minutes in the game, one by one.

Enemies gathered together and just went rolling over our towers and heroes while AM obviously couldn't do **** and Magnus just being straight out bad. Now put any other mid hero who has been babysit so hard mid and they would have won. But they had Alch, they failed to get even a T3 tower because you can't push into Kunkka and Magnus if your mid is a ****ing Alchemist, Alch fed a few times, and babyrage in all chat and mutual flaming in russian has begun. At that point is was pretty clear that we won so I relaxed and stalled the game for me and AM to get farmed and finish the game. Nice hero, nice build, never had a game where I muted all my allies that was so easy.

Pub scrubs just can't play with this build. I should be glad actually cause this Alchemist popularity got me way more pts that it lost me, but I constantly expect that MM will throw it in my team 5 times in a row so I'm really freaked put with this gameruin-tier build finding a place in pubs.

It worth saying that just because something doesn't work in pubs doesn't mean it doesn't work period. The fact it's 'ruining' pubs is a shame yeah, but that **** always happens with some hero or item build or some ****. It's nothing unique to Alch. Personally I'd start being afraid of offlane Outworld Devourer because of Slasher's way for a while, but that's just me.

It's also worth saying that Alch's pick rate and pick priority has been dropping to the point he's now an infrequent sight; You'll usually seem him in the later portion of the draft if at all (Whether picked or ban), so people have probably adjusted to the hero and it's weaknesses.

But it's not proof that the build is bad; It's implication that it's not Over-powered, and that both it and the hero have weaknesses, but it's not proof that it's bad. Technically it can also be proof of things just shifting in a new direction, and it could have nothing to do with Alch's relative power. That happens in patches as well.

EDIT; I don't think people were making the argument pro's are constantly winning with the build, rather that multiple pro's are using the build somewhat consistently. It's right to say that pro's are people too and liable to make mistakes with item builds some of the time, but seeing a given build consistently when there are clearly other alternatives kinda implies the build has something good about it.

I completely understand why you're mad at those game throwing scrublord Alchs Dimony but for the sake of the discussion it doesn't show that much, except that there are people who suck at Alch and throw games this way.
(I mean this guy didn't even give an Aghs to his support Warlock who could have high grounded you with an early aghs/refresher. Like the only big aghs that could have been game changing Alch didn't even give away.)

No, I think a much more convincing argument for the sake of this discussion would be to take people who are proven to be good players, and analyze their replays playing Alchemist and the consequences of their decisions. Streamers, typically.



No no, look back at the earlier threads about Alchemist, the typical argument was "I don't even have to explain why this build is good, every pro player uses it and it's consistently winning games". Literally this exact argument was repeated in every discussion on the subject (and even replaced the need for any kind of proper explanation), so I was getting pretty tired of seeing it since the numbers clearly contradict it.

Doesn't t show Aghs in dotobuff inventory if it was given away by Alch? I though that's why they made item section broader.

I'm not into streamers that much, so I can't say anything about how it is at their rating. Though some 5k+ players are hyped with him as well and think he is borderline overpowered.


I think is is magically tied to the fact that Major qualifiers are over and there are no more Tier 1/2 teams stomping amateur/semi-pro teams with Alch so no ez winrate boost for him.

I don't get it. Isn't an Aghs given by Alch a permanent buff on your hero? Why would it show on the dotabuff screen? It's not an item.
From what I see, Warlock and his friends bought their own aghs, so Alch didn't give away anything. Otherwise dotabuff is bugged or something.

I mean, you can still extract buffs that affect heroes from the combat log(TrueSight on DotaBuff literally translates it onto the site) and since Alch is very popular now given away Aghs are more common and may be somehow mentioned. Like you may wonder how WD without Aghs in inventory has dealt so much hero damage in a match. It is widened by about 2 slots, that's an eaten Moon Shard and gifted Aghs, why'd else they do that?

Actually, I'll launch replay and check now instead of theorycrafting here.

Edit: nvm, they really bought those themselves. I am confused about those extra slots then.

Hm, 4 me the dotabuff article chichi posted was very clear.

But i'm here to learn more :)