New Alchemist build.

Ok this is going too much to cancer.

Can I just say that to each his own and be done with that?

If you get 10 mins of good farm and then you get your farm items that let you get your six slot up in 25 mins into the game, why the hell not?


Comeback is still there!! I don't see any GG pushes 15-20 mins into the game......

Let me just say one thing that I dislike this new meta build. So much so that I cant wrap my head around it.


But I can still agree here that manta is a good item. I don't know; I saw countless times when good players avoided self stunning by using manta out while ganking.

I don't like octarine radiance. But its like those contentious questions like "should you go midas 10 mins into the game or not"

But hey, if it works it works.

Alche needs vision , team coordination and a little ignorant enemy.


Now can we please not go back to this idiot of an issue that has had members tearing at the seams?

It's worth saying; You don't need to push all three lanes at once with a build like this. The ability to do so is why Naga Siren is so effective as a rat, but it's not the core part of the item build. The build is about applying constant pressure. Whether it's one or two, or three lanes, applying pressure constantly on the map is a good thing because it either forces enemy rotations and allows you to control and dictate there movements, or it lets you get essentially free objectives and map control.

The fact it also super accelerates Alch's farm is a plus that makes it better on him than it would be on other random heroes, along with some of the heroes synergies with illusions. (From Greevil's Greed and Chemical Rage), especially when he can use to gold to increase his teams strength, not just his own.

Oh and remnants of 6.83 probably play a part as to why the hero isn't just being used for all in pushes at 25-35 minutes, which is his nominal timing window.

The problem IMO is not so much about the build falling off hard after a set time mark(because they go that build to ultimately get his fighting 6 slot faster(though I don't think that's possible unless you have full freefarm for like 30 mins), Alch will fall off hard sooner or later anyway).

It's just about the fact that even if you had enough space to get your Radi-Manta-Nectarine, you are basically playing 3 vs 5. Let's not pretend Alch isn't a piece of **** in teamfights with such a build, and your carry is also heavily underfarmed, because:

1)Jungle is for Alch, triple stacks are for Alch, only source of income is his lane and bits of jungle camps.

2)Ez lane is not ez at all with a bloodthirsty aggressive double hard lurking there and you can't even count on help of your supports because Alch loses mid hard to every ranged mid hero there is, plus some melees.

And this is what actually pisses me off the most about Alch mid, because not only he ruins the game for himself, he also ruins the game for me because I can't carry when I have brown boots and a stick in my inventory and, say, enemy Wraith King already got Blink and will soon get Armlet, blink in and just wreck your team. Admittedly, he will do this 17% slower. xD

So you basically pour all the resources into a naturally garbage in teamfights hero who then uses those resources to try and get even more dosh. Good luck defending your Tier 3 with "awesome counterpush and extremely efficient farming"

Alch isn't that horrible in fights. Acid spray + radi does a lot of dmg, considering you will survive for a long time (kinda like radi on wk).
Yes, alch most of mids, but he can easily come back from stacks in jungle. Also, if you have 3 heroes all the time on alch, your offlane and safelane are getting a lot of space.

EDIT: To everyone who just watched secret vs vg game 1:
Do you see now what happens with a utility/early carry alch who wants to finish the game at 35 mins?
He just can't do it against a decent highground defense. VG even had a jakiro and couldn't do it.

I don't know what kind of space are you talking about, honestly and what 3 heroes are drawn to Alch 5 mins into the game. Look at it this way:

1) You said it yourself, I said it, it's basically a no-brainer that Alch loses mid hard, I emphasize that, hard - most of the time. To give a more concrete example, take the most popular mids right now(in ranked, at least) - that'd be Lina, Shadow Fiend, Templar Assassin and ofc Windranger. Now every single one of them in 1 vs 1 scenario has an ability to completely bully him out of creepwave and deny creeps under Acid Spray. Why would you need any help from your supports if you already trashing Alch by yourself and doing all the work to shut him down? You only need supports in mid if you want to **** on enemy midlaner and help your snowball or if your mid is getting heavily outlaned and need help, usually it's both(say Ember who can snowball hard and has high kill potential from lvl 3 but really suffers in lane and ganks in mid really boost him). So it's Alch's supports who are drawn to midlane to help Alch get at least something, or he truly "comes back" with like 16 minute Radiance which is great on most heroes but for a hero who has Greevil's Greed it's completely garbage timing and it hardly does even half of the impact 16 minute Radi does on other heroes.

2) Which in turn leaves your carry without support in lane and if enemy was smart enough to pick a strong double lane in your carry's lane he's basically screwed. It's salvageable if you have a trilane top so at least one support will stay with you(though your lane still will be pretty hard), but that automatically loses you offlane because enemy supports are free to do what they will, their mid is doing fine, they can completely zone the offlaner out, make some stacks for their actual carry, mb help mid if he gets too much attention for enemy supports etc.

3) I won't argue about Alch with Radi-Manta being strong or not in teamfights, it's all semantic rly and depends on situation, though most of the time you can burst Alch down without much problem(unlike WK).

But this still leaves you with the fact that you sacrificed you carry's farm(ofc brown boots-stick was a hyperbole but reality is horribly close to this, actually), your offlane and your support's time so Alch can get a build which lets him get more money... if he doesn't lose his rax 25 mins in(though admittedly for Alch losing rax is slightly less crucial). That's why i hate it. A guy basically takes up way more space than SF while doing much less and then I get flamed for bad farm. Yea seems legit.

The only viable version of this build is Radiance > Chainmail > Octarine > BLademail > Mjollnir

Sure you guys are all right about radiance manta being ****. Better notify the pros before they win more games using the ****ty ineffective radiance manta build.

Could you please stop with this argument that "pros constantly win games with this build so this means it's good"?

They don't.

http://www.datdota.com/heroes.php

He's sitting at 50% winrate right now. It's been constantly dropping since the start of the patch, so actually right now Alch loses games more than he wins them.

Who cares about what pros do, these Alchs ruin my games right here and now, for free, no SMS. Pros are people too, they can also get overhyped and mistaken. Do you really think pros always use the most efficient and impactful builds(*cough* Lod[A] Midas on WK *cough* Illidan Eul's on carry Lesh *achoo*)?

Dark seer has a 47% winrate and teams constantly pick/ban him.
QOP has a 48% winrate and teams constantly pick/ban her.
Tusk has 50% winrate and teams constantly pick/ban him.
Ember spirit 50% winrate and teams constantly pick/ban him.

You get the idea...