General
- Heroes in their fountain can no longer have their position changed by any spell or item controlled by enemies.
- Fountain now has true strike and can attack ethereal units as if they were not ethereal.
Death to fountain farming.
- Courier respawn time reduced from 3 to 2 minutes
-
Ultimate Orb moved from secret shop to baseWhy was ultimate orb removed from side shop again? Right now it's such a pain in the *** to buy skadi, linkens or whatever item based on it. Why?
-
Sentry Wards no longer reveal enemy wards if placed normally. They still reveal invisible units.- Placing
Sentry Wards while holding the ALT key now places Ward Detectors, which are visually different from normal sentries. Ward detectors reveal enemy 
Observer Wards, Sentry Wards and other ward detectors. However, they do not reveal invisible units.The idea of this change is to remove any interaction between dewarding and countering invisible heroes, they are completely different mechanics. This way you get 2 different items, one for each. Right now, sentries that were planted to deward will still reveal invisible units for 4 minutes after they were placed. This can lead to purely luck based events where an invisible hero gets caught out by a dewarding sentry that was not placed to bait him, but just happened to be there because of a failed deward. This ends in the sentry paying for itself twice, giving invis hero detection for free, which is unfair.
This change doesn't change anything about
Sentry Wards still countering invisible heroes like before. It only prevents sentries that were used to deward from giving any vision afterwards.Hero changes
-
Venomancer*
Poison Nova mana cost reduced from 200/300/400 to 125/225/325*
Aghanim's Scepter Poison Nova cooldown reduced from 140/120/60 to 100/80/60*
Poison Nova expand speed increased from 500 to 750He currently has punishing mana issues that prevent him from using ulti at level 6, neither core nor support Veno has a place for arcanes. Aghs coldown to finally remove midas from his build and have him go blink/aghs to snowball the game instead of ricing his level 16.
-
Earthshaker* Spell immune units can now walk through
FissureNote that it helps his allies cross badly positionned fissures as well so it's not just a nerf, it also drastically reduces the ability of bad ES's to screw up their whole team.
-
Centaur Warrunner *
Return base damage increased from 16/18/20/22 to 28 at all levelsLaning buff mainly. He's too easy to zone out these days.
-
Tinker* Base damage increased by 4
*
Laser manacost reduced from 95/120/145/170 to 85/105/125/155Maxing march and stacking camps is no longer that good with the magic resistant stack nerfs. Better lane dominance to compensate.
-
Pugna* Starting strength increased from 17 to 19
* Night vision increased from 800 to 1100
What's even the point of his ult range if he doesn't have the vision to use it and/or to prevent the link from breaking? Sniper has increased night vision, why not Pugna?
-
Axe* Reworked
Battle HungerEnrages an enemy hero, causing him to feel an irresistible need to charge into combat, and feel ever-increasing pain should he not stand and fight to prove his manliness.
Debuff starts with one stack on cast, and gains one stack whenever the target performs one of the following actions :
- Casting a spell on self or on an ally
- Casting an item on self or on an ally
- Moving 800 units in the direction opposite to Axe, by any means (normal or magical)
Each of these actions increases the number of stacks on the target by one. Battle hunger deals damage per second, slows, and increases Axe's movement speed in proportion of the total number of stacks. Multiple actions stack indefinitely (for example using forcestaff on self causes the target to gain two stacks, one for the item usage and one for the movement). Attacking or casting a spell targeted on an enemy does not cause Battle hunger to gain stacks. Use of point target spells or items does not cause Battle hunger to gain stacks.
Battle hunger is no longer removed when killing a creep. Only removed when killing a hero or assisting in a hero kill with sufficient damage (20% of the hero's max health).
Does not pierce spell immunity. Can only be dispelled by spell immunity, not by other sources of dispel.
Damage per second per stack : 3/6/9/12 + 4%/6%/8%/10% of Axe's strength as pure damage.
Move speed slow per stack : 2%/3%/4%/5%
Self movement speed gain per stack : 4%
Duration : 6/7/8/9
Cast range : 650/700/750/800
Cooldown : 16/13/10/7
Mana cost : 80/85/90/95
The current Hunger is poorly designed skill that needs a rework, badly. The fact that the usual build is to put only one point in it for the movement speed clearly shows that. The change gives Axe a niche of punishing the use of defensive skills/items on allies. Being a real man, Axe punishes any kind of ***** play, which for him is anything that isn't just YOLOing in :)
-
Luna* Turn rate increased from 0.6 to 0.9
* Base movement speed increased from 330 to 335
More booty shaking ability.
-
Leshrac*
Pulse Nova initial mana cost reduced from 70/90/110 to 30/40/50Farming made easy, even on support Lesh. Since stacks are now magic resistant and his E no longer deals enough damage.
-
Dragon Knight*
Breathe Fire manacost reduced from 100/110/120/130 to 100 at all levels* (nerfs to meta heroes so they no longer kick DK's *** mid as hard)
Bottle nerfs suck for DK. Among other issues that may or may not be linked to the Invoker and OD matchup making the hero unplayable :)-
Pudge*
Meat Hook ministun and damage no longer pierce spell immunity. Only displacement does.It used to be like this before the change to spell immunity. Now that aghs gives him hook on a 4 second cooldown, it's absolutely needed. Pudge having 2 ways to interrupt BKB+TP, one of them being on a 4 second cd...OSFrog. Pudge shouldn't make
Enigma unplayable...along other unfair issues with the hero right now.-
Legion Commander*
Overwhelming Odds damage per hero increased from 20/35/50/65 to 25/45/65/85* (Yay for
Press the Attack instant Alt-W quickcast on self. Huge hidden buff if I ever saw any.)Yes, that's a buff to her Q. This skill *needs* to be super good if she catches multiple heroes in it. LC is just too weak against teams that 5-man all the time in the early-mid game. If she can't punish 5-manning teams the hero is just bad.
-
Razor*
Eye of the Storm cast point and backswing reduced to zeroThis was done for
Rocket Barrage and not Razor ulti? Why?-
Dazzle* Base damage reduced by 5
Laning nerf. Less obnoxious zoning, Dazzle is supposed to be weak in lane to balance out grave, and so he was before his attack range was buffed for no reason at all, on top of his Q getting its mana cost halved.
-
Bloodseeker* When
Bloodrage is level 4, casting the skill on self no longer puts it on cooldown.Buffs mainly nuking builds on Bloodseeker, so he can bloodrage himself and his target in a fast succession. But also good on right-click builds.
-
Zeus*
Static Field now deals damage to illusions based on a percentage of their effective HP (after dividing by their damage amplification), not of their actual HP*
Static Field no longer disables 
Blink Dagger*
Aghanim's Scepter reworked. Causes a second lightning strike to hit all enemy heroes after a 2.95 second delay. Damage of the first strike is no longer increased, damage of the second strike equals to the difference.Fixes Zeus passive to no longer deal increased damage to illusions for no reason. Zeus shouldn't counter illusion heroes because of devs being bad at math, right now it works based on the actual HP of the illusions which is the same as the hero's HP...which is stupid, since the illusions's real HP is much lower than that. Aghs buff to make it globally disable
Blink Daggers for 6 seconds and counter initiations, because let's be honest his current aghs is trash.-
Lifestealer*
Infest on creeps is now limited to a 100 second duration, after which 
Consume is forced*
Tranquil Boots on Lifestealer now break if the infested creep takes damage* Base attack time upgraded to 1.6
*
Open Wounds mana cost reduced from 110 to 110/100/90/80*
Open Wounds can no longer be purged except by becoming spell immuneLess AFK sitting in creeps, more using creeps as magic immune taxis for a short amount of time to help him gank/initiate. Right now, the
Radiance memestealer is pretty stupid but naix is still a rather bad carry. If he gets changed like this, I'm actually playing him.-
Doom*
Doom cooldown reverted from 125 to 100Why was this nerfed again? Yeah...no reason at all, since Doom was OP because of his W, not his ulti, and his W got nerfed back.
-
Viper*
Poison Attack is no longer a unique attack modifier-
Drow Ranger*
Frost Arrows is no longer a unique attack modifier*
Marksmanship icon now disappears when the skill is disabled-
Lycan*
Shapeshift cooldown reduced from 120/90/60 to 100/75/50Buff his necrobooks with crits all you want, Lycan is still weak because the uptime on his ulti is dumpster tier, especially at level 2.
-
Riki* Riki can now cast
Smoke Screen without cancelling 
Tricks of the Trade*
Tricks of the Trade now causes each hit to apply a debuff on enemies that reduces their turn rate by 40/50/60% for 1 second-
Troll Warlord*
Berserker's Rage now increases base damage by 3/6/9/12 in melee mode* (
Silver Edge is now purged by BKB)* Added
Aghanim's Scepter to Troll : 
Battle Trance duration increased to 9 seconds, cooldown reduced to 25 seconds. Whenever an allied hero dies within a 1200 range of Troll, Battle Trance cooldown gets reduced by 6 seconds if the skill is on cooldown.-
Clinkz*
Searing Arrows damage can now crit (like it used to before the orb change)* INT gain increased from 1.55 to 2
-
Huskar* Being affected by
Shallow Grave, 
Cold Embrace, 
False Promise, 
Decrepify or 
Snowball when below 40% HP now causes Huskar to instantly die.*
Berserker's Blood max magic resistance rescaled from 20%/30%/40%/50% to 40%/50%/60%/70%*
Berserker's Blood now grants attack damage. Max damage : 30/50/70/90Kind of kappa on this one. But seriously, Huskar should be balanced on his own not around lame combos with defensive supports. Otherwise he gets overnerfed just to prevent these combos from being broken, making him trash on his own.
-
Witch Doctor* Base movement speed reduced from 305 to 300
*
Paralyzing Cask cooldown increased from 20/18/16/14 to 20 at all levels9 seconds of stun on a 14 second cooldown is perfectly fair and balanced. OSFrog pls.
-
Batrider*
Flamebreak damage instances rescaled from once every second to once every 0.5 second. Duration from 3/4/5/6 to 1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds.Makes burst more instant, without changing overall damage. I really want 4/4/1 burst-oriented Bat to be viable. And to buy an
Ethereal Blade on him to follow it up with a big 1K damage molotov :)-
Enchantress*
Nature's Attendants cooldown increased from 45 to 60Laning nerf, mainly. Infinite heals in lane is a bit too good. Personally I go null + 3 clarity on offlane ench and always get away with it. Now you can bait her heal and go on her when it's on cd.
-
Terrorblade*
Sunder mana cost reduced from 200/100/0 to 150/75/0Value point FTW...that's actually a fairly big buff. I want to skill one point in it and leave it there, going 4/4/4/1 + stats. 200 mana is a bit too much.
-
Oracle*
False Promise now only doubles healing from Oracle himself, not from other sourcesNo, seriously, Oracle + Satanic on carry = OSFrog.
-
Shadow Demon* Level 4
Disruption now freezes spell cooldowns on enemies during the 2.5 second banish time*
Demonic Purge manacost reduced from 200 to 125Ult costing 200 mana is way too much for what it does, fixing his mana issues is a must. Disruption change allows him to deal at least decently with low cooldown mobility skills like
Blink or 
Shukuchi. But you need to max the skill for it to work, otherwise if a low level SD can do it it's too good.-
Necrophos*
Heartstopper Aura can now be toggled on and offSo that enemies can't see the aura when you are near, e.g during ganks. This is actually a pretty big deal.
-
Invoker*
Tornado no longer gives vision*
Tornado no longer applies a dispel*
Tornado manacost increased from 150 to 225*
Exort attack damage per instance reduced from 3/6/9/12/15/18/21 to 1/4/7/10/13/16/19* During
Ghost Walk, 
Wex instances no longer give bonus movement speedDust Invoker and see him running away at 522 movement speed. Needs fix, pronto.
* Passive bonuses from Quas, Wex and Exort are now disabled by Break
*
Deafening Blast pushback is now fully removed by becoming spell immune*
Deafening Blast disarm duration rescaled from 1.25/2/2.75/3.5/4.25/5/5.75/6.5 to 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5/4/4.5*
Ice Wall linger duration reduced from 2 to 0.75 second*
Forge Spirit bounty doubled (both gold and XP)Anyone who thinks that's overdone should meditate on the impact of giving 4 free levels of XP to the most level dependent hero in the game, on top of turning Deafening blast into
Ravage, and massively increasing his mana pool allowing him to go refreser as his second item. And huge laning buffs on top. And massive Bottle nerfs that favor the only mid hero in the game that doesn't use bottle. Yeah, even with these changes it's still a huge net buff to Invo over the 3 last patches. This is just to balance it out, and even with that he's still tier 1 pick. Long shall he be remembered as one of the biggest imbalances in dota history.- outworld devourer
* Starting strength reduced from 19 to 17
*
Sanity's Eclipse now requires Aghanim's Scepter to have the 40% mana drain*
Arcane Orb no longer drains 65 mana from targets. INT reduction now reduces max mana, not current mana. Current mana stays the same unless it is brought below the new max mana.Fixes the mana drain on OD, which is arguably what makes him unfair right now. Orb reduces max mana instead of actually draining current mana. This nerfs him while still keeping him as a good hero, you don't want him to get the Lesh treatment.
-
Windranger*
Windrun no longer disjoints projectiles if the attacker has true strike, and no longer disjoints tower hits*
Windrun bonus movement speed reduced from 50% to 30/35/40/50%*
Windrun slow lingers for 0.75 seconds instead of 2 secondsAnyone who thinks WR was nerfed in 6.86 should learn to read between the lines. 6.86 was actually an overall buff. So maybe balance out windrun's infinite tower diving nonsense, disjoint abuse and ability to kite MKB users? The skill is way too good with only one point in it.
-
Phoenix*
Sun Ray range reduced from 1300 to 1200*
Sun Ray effect range is no longer increased by 
Aether LensOverbuffed skill, not much more to say here.
Aether Lens Phoenix is ********, sit 1500 units back and spam laser. Don't forget that 1/4/4 is the best build by far on him so it's always maxed second.-
Sniper* Full rework into a nuker/initiator/pusher hybrid SPELLCASTER. No longer a right-click carry. Anything else such as buffs or minor reworks won't cut it. The hero concept sucks, put it in the wastebasket where it belongs and make a new one.
-
Phantom Assassin*
Coup de Grace now gives critical chance to the damage procs from 
Skull Basher and 
Abyssal Blade* (
Silver Edge is now purged by BKB)* Intelligence gain increased from 1.4 to 1.75
*
Coup de Grace now has an active ability on top of the passive crit : for 4/6/8 seconds, whenever PA kills a hero or a hero dies within 250 range of her, 
Stifling Dagger and 
Phantom Strike cooldowns are reset. No mana cost. 40/30/20 second cooldown. Can be toggled to activate automatically whenever a hero dies inside the search range.Even if you fix the crit on abyssal procs, her damage output is lower than it used to be before the basher and MKB nerfs. Ult buff allows her to kill several hereos in a rapid succession once farmed, which improves her teamfight presence and late game scaling. Encourages the "glass cannon damage items + BKB + Satanic" item route, which is the best anyways by far.
The INT buff is actually pretty important because it allows her to skip aquila and rush midas without major mana issues...midas being of course the best farming item on the hero by far.
-
Death Prophet*
Spirit Siphon no longer pierces spell immunityYes, it fully pierces BKB right now, damage, slow and everything. Yes, OSFrog.
-
Spectre*
Haunt duration reduced from 5/6/7 to 4/5/6 seconds*
Haunt illusions now start attacking immediately, instead of after a 1 second delay*
Reality now has a 0.5 second cast point*
Spectral Dagger unobstructed movement now stops instantly when Spectre leaves the shadow path, instead of lingering for 2 secondsSince
Silver Edge is nerfed, a small Spec nerf makes sense, and fixing several glitchy/badly designed stuff about the hero along the way.Item changes
-
Silver Edge* Debuff can now be dispelled by spell immunity (still can't be dispelled by other sources of dispel)
* Debuff duration reduced from 5 to 4 seconds
Removing any possibility to dispel it in 6.86 was simply overdone, and giving a massive buff to an item that didn't even need a buff in the first place was plain nonsense. Allowing BKB to purge it is an absolute must, since every item should have a counter (e.g diffusal against ghost scepter, euls against orchid, lotus against sheepstick, etc). As long as there's no counter to this item, PA, Bristle, Troll etc are plain unplayable. Why so much hate against heroes with passives anyways? Did they need a nerf? Nope. Only Spectre potentially needed a nerf while all the other passive dependent heroes like Bristle or PA were already underpowered enough as they were. So fix this item.
-
Clarity* Casting a spell now cancels the effect
An item that's made for roaming supports probably shouldn't be that abusable to spam long-range lane harass. Especially since it got buffed wayyy too much in the first place. Do you want to see mass spell spam in the early game? I don't.
-
Mjollnir* Recipe cost reduced from 900 to 700
* Chain lightning proc chance increased from 25% to 30%
The jungle magic resistance kind of made this item garbage. Not that it was especially great in the first place.
-
Mask of Madness* Movement speed bonus increased to 25% on melee heroes, still 17% on ranged heroes
* Damage taken amplification reduced from 30% to 22% on melee heroes, still 30% on ranged heroes
Item is kind of trash right now. Movement speed was OP on ranged kiters, but it isn't and has never been so on melee heroes. Bring back MoM
Sven and 
Juggernaut.-
Armlet of Mordiggian* Now builds from
Quarterstaff instead of 
Gloves of Haste + 
Blades of Attack. Total cost unchanged.* HP regen increased from 7/second to 9/second
****py buildup? Check. Saps your sustain which reduces your ability to farm? Check. That's why I only build armlet on like 3-4 heroes. You can fix this easily just to make the item more convenient. It's not even a direct buff.
-
Heart of Tarrasque* Now builds from
Reaver, 
Ogre Club and 1500 gold recipe. Total cost unchanged.* Strength increased from 40 to 50
* Health reduced from 300 to 110
Total HP unchanged. Just more stats. Skadi is 50 raw stats (25 strength + 25 agi), heart needs to keep up, and be a true stat item : 10 more damage for strength carries.
-
Medallion of Courage / 
Solar Crest* Armor reduction now pierces spell immunity (miss chance still doesn't)
* Debuff can no longer be purged (buff still can)
* Can no longer be cast on spell immune allies. Becoming spell immune dispels the buff.
It was nerfed as an offensive item, and remains just as stupid as a defensive item to spam on your carry. That's kind of lame, much better if you reverse it, and leave it be the physical damage snowball item it's meant to be.
-
Orchid Malevolence* Recipe cost reduced from 775 to 575. Total cost reduced from 4075 to 3875.
Item was indirectly nerfed with the introduction of many additional ways to purge it : lotus, greaves, buffed diffusal, etc. Makes it come online sooner to compensate.
-
Blink Dagger* Blink is now disabled whenever the holder is under the effect of any disable controlled by enemies, for the duration of the associated debuff. Blink becomes instantly available again as soon as it ends.
Open Wounds, Orchid Malevolence, 
Diffusal Blade, 
Rod of Atos among many others now disable blink.-
Ghost Scepter* Ghost form no longer blocks ranged projectiles that were fired before it was activated
Puck relies on blink a lot, imo...
And make puck be able to cast phase shift while rooted. Cus just because you're rooted doesn't mean you can't move to another dimension, y'know
Since there are several aspects that make a carry good in dota and he has them, just not yet optimazed.
These aspects are: solid early game and/ or good laningstage. If we remember the previous op carries,
terroblade has an amazing early game with good base damage and high base armour and movementspeed. This makes the hero good at trading rightclicks. Besides that
Another aspect is pushing power, which
Also being able to do stuff on the map with low risk. For example
Last but not least, teamfight.
Besided that he farms fast and has plenty of item and skillbuilds which makes it difficult for the enemy topredict his playstyle.
So for this reason I will emphasize that terroblade doesn't need a big buff but just a sleight buff probably in the damage taken by his illusions or his strenght gain. However removing the movementspeed los during
I really hope they give tb a small buff to either his illusions or his hp
Oh wow other people asking for TB buffs over me. He's in a good place right now. Maybe just slightly reduce the damage his illusions take.
This list. That debate.
All of this, is a cover.
All hail icehamster
I don't know about you guys, but I buy Sentries for exactly what they do: Reveal Invisible Units.
If it reveals a ward, good job, sentry, you've done your job.
If it reveals a hero, well done sentry, you've done your job.
If it reveals nothing at all, still well done, you've done your job.
I'm not against changes in this area - being able to buy single sentries would be nice, as would a cost reduction because having to counter invisible abilities/items on other team already has a considerable economic effect on the opposition supports.
From the point of view of the invis hero - they make a conscious decision to cross into enemy territory, the river, etc without sufficient vision of whether they can do safely or not. If they choose to cross at likely dewarding spots there's a small chance the opposition may have placed a sentry to deward, and an even smaller chance that opposition heroes happen to be in a position where they can go on the invis hero successfully. They're balancing that against the vision they can gain on the opposition team, and the chance of successfully ganking lone heroes and escaping.
From the point of view of the opposition supports - they're usually already struggling for both gold and inventory space, and already have the overhead of having to counter invisible heroes (a few thousand gold per game, a significant % of your net worth). Sentries are now 200g gambled on whether you happen to get a kill or assist on an invisible hero, so lets look at the other options.
- Dust. Can be purged, has a cooldown, can only be used when you strongly suspect an invisible opponent is in the area. By the time you use it, it's likely they're already killing you, and may have silenced or stunned you. You hope your team can respond and get a counter-kill.
- Gem. Not affordable until much later on, you're a bad carrier because you have low HP and likely no escape. You may get lucky and see them at the extreme of it's range and have enough time to escape.
- Necrobook 3. Yeah, only 5k+ for an item that has about 30% uptime.
You can perhaps save up for an escape item. Blink probably won't work because they damage you when they decloak.
As it stands, a well placed
So basically as a #5 the best thing you can do against invisible opponents is go to the fountain and DC, so your team gets your gold income and you don't feed.
I think you're trying to solve a problem which doesn't exist, and the solution has very unpleasant consequences for an important but very unpopular role.
It's pretty sad to take time to base my claims on actual *arguments* and *facts* just to see them "contested" by notorious fallacies without a single fact or argument attached.
So the 50 lines comments I did explaining why I think your changes aren't good before making you know why I think you keep making the same mistake don't count as facts or arguments? xD
My last words on the subject: You say detection of invis heroes is free on that particular ward, I completely disagree, but I would be repeating myself so let's leave it at that. The same for the catching out the invis hero.
When I said I think this is the best meta we had, I mean exactly because of the big changes that were made with 6.86 and before that. I think that balance patch was indeed that, something that balanced the game as never before, and that right now it's fine, with needing only changes to correct stuff that was left out or that doesn't work as well. So I don't understand at all what your argument is when you post the major changes that occurred in patches before: how does that say that this patch isn't the most balanced? Or how does the fact that 6.86 didn't continuing the line of 6.85 makes 6.86 not good? For someone who likes to quote philosofy argumentation theories, I would think you knew better how to counterargument something directly and on-subject, understanding what my argument means and where is the line between facts and opinions - you stated facts about the patches, I stated my opinion on the current meta, which isn't a fact, now I would like you to explain why the facts you pointed out contradict my opinion (which is ofc a perfectly valid thing to do, you would probably be surprised by how often I change my opinion based on learning stuff from others's people arguments).
Concerning the careful comment I did on why sometimes your opinions are biased in a way that doesn't allow for more interesting technical discussions with you: you can ofc dismiss it with "just cause everyone says it's true it's doesn't mean it is", but then you're just being as arrogant and not reflected as those people that say the sun goes around the earth or something like that, and I know you can go further than this if you're honest about what what I really mean. Dota is made basically on the opinion of its community, there are no observable facts besides those general big trends you can get from number statistics, but we know the closest we can get to some kind of truth about subjects like opness and balance is between a measure between what all people that play the game think and what people that play the game with competence (pros) think. In this case, both are fine with the detection system as it is right now, you're the only person I know that isn't. The same is true for other things, such as our famous discussion about how broken Silver Edge is or how you think Wind was not nerfed but buffed the last patch (despite her stopped being picked nearly half as much and the fact that experienced players like Bunkan telling you the problems, if existant, are elsewhere). You might be the genius among the beasts, just as I actually said, or you can adopt a more humble attitude, which I think would improve your points and understanding of the game in general imensily - and there's no telling which one is right. This is just me taking the time to carefully and not offensily explain you this, because maybe no one ever took the trouble of doing it in such a way and I think it can help, being that it's an observable fact that many people have noticed and maybe you didn't yourself. If you prefer to ignore it, fine ofc, and don't worry, I won't repeat this speech again. But then again, you did a post with the changes you want the game to suffer: you either say you want them only because you do, like Tera did recently, or you say because they are needed, which you did, and in that case I think it's legit for us to question your reasons in all forms that they may take.
If you don't understand I will explain myself: you say it's unfair because the sentry just happened to be there for dewarding instead of baiting as you call it, I'm telling you when I play against invisible heroes I place those exact sentries everywhere to catch them out, not to deward.
Good for you. So then you have no issue with that sentry not revealing enemy wards like I wanted, do you?
No the argument that it is unfair that a 200 gold item does both: 1) the only way to not make invisible heroes overpowered is to make sure you have to rely on your wits to get out with it, allowing for the other team to deal with the invisible hero. 2) If it's a 200 gold item (so cheap so cheap) your team and the ganker itself can also get it and deward the enemy sentries (which I have been having a lot in my games with
My entire point was that a sentry planted to deward already paid for itself by giving you information : if there's a ward, you destroy it, if there's no ward, then you misplaced it and you know there's no ward. So having that ward also reveal invis heroes makes it pay for itself TWICE. In other words, you get the detection of invis heroes FOR FREE on that particular ward.
So I see nothing here to contest my argument. No, that particular ward does not bear a cost on the enemy team since it gives you invis hero detection for free, that's the entire point I made in the first place.
Plus: vision is even more complicated then this, since I don't have to remind you a sentry somewhere where you don't have vision won't reveal the invisible enemy passing, only way to do that is to also have a normal ward there (normal wards which are not spammable like sentries). Guess what happens when you want to place a normal ward? You place a sentry first to deward. That's how the most common ward spots end up also being the spots for sentries, besides what you said yourself, that they are the entrance to points like the jungle. Besides, because of the need of a normal ward for vision, invisible heroes can still pass by sentries that where placed somewhere with no other ward undetected.
Well, the whole point is that 2 or more enemy heroes are near the sentry range to catch out the invis hero! And this can happen randomly like walking on Techies' mines, it doesn't have to be calculated, it can just be heroes going for a rune, farming or something. If that's the case, the heroes themselves see him, so you don't need vision from
On a different note, but I want to say so that you think more on this: no one else besides you is complaining about invisibility heroes being in a bad spot now, and the number of pick/bans itself shows that ("Clinkz" being an excellent example, how many pro games have you seen with him lately? And also streamers, as you said yourself). What you say about ganks being impossible is not true, since you still can't cover enough ground with both normal wards and sentries to prevent it properly. Only thing that is prevented now are the brainless-no-risk-solo-ganks "I enter their jungle" I kill someone. Everything else is still perfectly viable, and no, I don't think our meta now is boring or that it has no ganks. I think whether you go to that place of "you against the world" because you're rigtht that this is so unfair and everyone else is blind, or you start admiting to yourself more often that sometimes being the only one that thinks something about the mechanics of a game might mean something else. So unfortunetely I think Safecyn has a point, this change you're trying to bring on the account of "unfairness", not to mention others (to not make it a repetitive long discussion), seems like something just out of your personal vendettas and pleasures more than reflected view on issues to make the game more enjoyable. And if I'm not mistaken you have already been told this before. Basically, the vision and detection system, after so many changes, is finally in a good place, where both invisible heroes and their enemy team are balanced, and I start reading your notes and stuff like this change, for the reasons I explained already, makes me not trust your judgement on the rest, where I happened to miss interesting things that make sense in the global whole of making the game better because balance (like the change to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
"In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: If many believe so, it is so."
It's pretty sad to take time to base my claims on actual *arguments* and *facts* just to see them "contested" by notorious fallacies without a single fact or argument attached.
If something, this shows a complete lack of valid arguments and facts that can be presented to contest my points, actually proving them.
Sadly, logic doesn't care about the number of people who think something, or about the reasons why you think I'm advocating that particular change. So the value of this as an argument is zero.
IMO the meta we're living now is just the best meta I have played in 3 years, since more heroes are viable, less heroes are clearly unbalanced and the actual way to play the game promotes cooperation more than ever and it's complex enough to make it a game of wits and not just a child's one. New changes seem to be to need little more than just tweaks here and there to perfect it, and on places that need it, not entire new systems when the current one is fine as it is.
In 6.86 alone, we had :
- 5 full hero reworks : DP, Void, Riki, LD and Doom
- Add a 6th one with Winter Wyvern
- Add a 7th one with OD
- Major map changes
- Major changes to most carry items
- Introduction of entirely new items that completely change the game and the item builds on a big part of the hero pool
That's 6.86. 6.84 was even bigger with all the new items that completely changed the game in depth.
The only balance patch there ever was in the last 2 years was 6.85, which by the way was officially called a balance patch by Icefrog in contrast to every other patch. All the other patches had major changes to the game.
"little more than just tweaks here and there to perfect it, and on places that need it, not entire new systems when the current one is fine as it is"? That's objectively not true. This could have been true if 6.86 continued in the line of 6.85, but it very clearly did not.
No offence, but this point makes no sense at all. Most replays/streams/whatever I see of this occurence is about sentries placed in common warding spots (typically on cliffs!!), that don't end up dewarding anything because there was no ward, but end up randomly detecting invis heroes. They clearly weren't placed there to bait the invis hero, it's simply dumb luck that it happened this way. When playing Nyx or Clinkz, you actually need to avoid the common ward spots because most of these spots are sentried. SOme of the most common warding spots are actually the entrance to the enemy jungle, which is the only way an invis hero can come roam in it, and which is very likely to be sentried. Sentries last for 4 minutes which is huge. So a dewarding sentry placed on the cliff at the entrance of the enemy jungle causes Nyx or something to get caught out. How is that fair?
Since sentries no longer take an inventory space (IMO a well-intentioned support buff that misfired horribly), supports can now spam sentries to deward their entire jungle, and all the better if they catch invis heroes with it. Is there any skill involved in doing this? No. It's not a calculated bait, just plain RNG, since they were placed to attempt dewards not bait you. It takes as much skill as spamming mines randomly in your jungle with
Is the point to prevent invis heroes from roaming in the enemy jungle by threatening them with randomly getting detected by something that requires zero skill? Is the point to have an AFK jungling meta with no ganks? I really don't see anything good coming out of this.
If you don't understand I will explain myself: you say it's unfair because the sentry just happened to be there for dewarding instead of baiting as you call it, I'm telling you when I play against invisible heroes I place those exact sentries everywhere to catch them out, not to deward. No the argument that it is unfair that a 200 gold item does both: 1) the only way to not make invisible heroes overpowered is to make sure you have to rely on your wits to get out with it, allowing for the other team to deal with the invisible hero. 2) If it's a 200 gold item (so cheap so cheap) your team and the ganker itself can also get it and deward the enemy sentries (which I have been having a lot in my games with
Plus: vision is even more complicated then this, since I don't have to remind you a sentry somewhere where you don't have vision won't reveal the invisible enemy passing, only way to do that is to also have a normal ward there (normal wards which are not spammable like sentries). Guess what happens when you want to place a normal ward? You place a sentry first to deward. That's how the most common ward spots end up also being the spots for sentries, besides what you said yourself, that they are the entrance to points like the jungle. Besides, because of the need of a normal ward for vision, invisible heroes can still pass by sentries that where placed somewhere with no other ward undetected.
On a different note, but I want to say so that you think more on this: no one else besides you is complaining about invisibility heroes being in a bad spot now, and the number of pick/bans itself shows that ("Clinkz" being an excellent example, how many pro games have you seen with him lately? And also streamers, as you said yourself). What you say about ganks being impossible is not true, since you still can't cover enough ground with both normal wards and sentries to prevent it properly. Only thing that is prevented now are the brainless-no-risk-solo-ganks "I enter their jungle" I kill someone. Everything else is still perfectly viable, and no, I don't think our meta now is boring or that it has no ganks. I think whether you go to that place of "you against the world" because you're rigtht that this is so unfair and everyone else is blind, or you start admiting to yourself more often that sometimes being the only one that thinks something about the mechanics of a game might mean something else. So unfortunetely I think Safecyn has a point, this change you're trying to bring on the account of "unfairness", not to mention others (to not make it a repetitive long discussion), seems like something just out of your personal vendettas and pleasures more than reflected view on issues to make the game more enjoyable. And if I'm not mistaken you have already been told this before. Basically, the vision and detection system, after so many changes, is finally in a good place, where both invisible heroes and their enemy team are balanced, and I start reading your notes and stuff like this change, for the reasons I explained already, makes me not trust your judgement on the rest, where I happened to miss interesting things that make sense in the global whole of making the game better because balance (like the change to
Even if your new idea of different modes for wards doesn't have anything clearly wrong with it besides the issues of balance that we already discussed, it's just unneded. IMO the meta we're living now is just the best meta I have played in 3 years, since more heroes are viable, less heroes are clearly unbalanced and the actual way to play the game promotes cooperation more than ever and it's complex enough to make it a game of wits and not just a child's one. New changes seem to be to need little more than just tweaks here and there to perfect it, and on places that need it, not entire new systems when the current one is fine as it is.