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Backtrack= OP or just annoying? (Warning: Potential Rant ahead)

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Forum » General Discussion » Backtrack= OP or just annoying? (Warning: Potential Rant ahead) 44 posts - page 2 of 5

Poll Question:


What do you think of Backtrack?
Overpowered
Annoying
Balanced
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 2:51am | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:



Multiplicatively, not diminishingly. And Backtrack isn't evasion, it's not "other" sources of evasion. Backtrack has nothing to do with evasion, it just negates 25% of any damage instance whether physical or magical.

Butterfly Faceless Void is awesome (multiplicative stacking)
Butterfly Phantom Assassin sucks (diminishing stacking)


Bro, u need to see the tooltip. backtrack It specifically uses the word diminishingly in-game and also in the hero library.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 3:01am | Report
While we are at it, please share the mathematics for multiplicative stacking and diminshing stack.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Terathiel » November 22, 2014 3:21am | Report
I think it works like so:

PA with butterfly, for example, has a 50% chance to evade an attack, and if that fails a 35% chance to evade again. This works out to around 67% evasion.

Void has a 25% chance to Backtrack AND a 35% chance to evade, which essentially is 60% evasion.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 3:50am | Report
Terathiel wrote:

I think it works like so:

PA with butterfly, for example, has a 50% chance to evade an attack, and if that fails a 35% chance to evade again. This works out to around 67% evasion.

Void has a 25% chance to Backtrack AND a 35% chance to evade, which essentially is 60% evasion.

That is called additive stacking.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Xyrus » November 22, 2014 4:08am | Report
Terathiel wrote:

Void has a 25% chance to Backtrack AND a 35% chance to evade, which essentially is 60% evasion.

Nope, basically, there are 4 scenarios

25% * 35% == 8.75% chance for both to Proc
25% * 65% == 16.25% chance for Backtrack to Proc
75% * 35% == 26.25% chance for Evasion to Proc
75% * 65% == 48.75% chance for neither to Proc

The chances for you to negate "evadable" damage when you have Maxed out Backtrack and a Butterfly are therefore:-

8.75% + 16.25% + 26.25% == 51.25%

You can also look at it as "so long as one of them Procs, I won't take damage" and get

100% - 48.75% == 51.25%

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by F.E.A.R.0 » November 22, 2014 4:33am | Report
Does anyone read what I said? Backtrack is a TRIGGERED HEAL (PRE-HEAL). I will post my blog about Triggered Heals, then go read it and see what triggered heals are.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 4:45am | Report
Xyrus wrote:


Nope, basically, there are 4 scenarios

25% * 35% == 8.75% chance for both to Proc
25% * 65% == 16.25% chance for Backtrack to Proc
75% * 35% == 26.25% chance for Evasion to Proc
75% * 65% == 48.75% chance for neither to Proc


8.75% + 16.25% + 26.25% == 51.25%




Taking what Xyrus Said.
And what F.E.A.R 0 Said about a triggered heal; backtrack will not heal what was missed(duh!)
Consequentially the chance that both proc'd is substracted as it is a practical impossibiliity.
Secondly,
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Faceless_Void
See backtrack tooltip ( my assumption is affirmed)
Quoted: "Evasion has priority over Backtrack icon.png Backtrack. When evasion procs, Backtrack can't proc on that attack. "
Coupling this into factor the new chance would be 26.25+25=41.25%
This can also be looked as 25 + (1-0.25)*(0.35)= 41.25%

Your maths is off Xyrus.
I read you blog F.E.A.R.0 hence i got into researching it. Thanks for that

I have based the calculations on diminutive stacking which is the case as per DoTA 2 library hero info page.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by KoDyAbAbA » November 22, 2014 4:49am | Report
Kyphoid returns wrote:



Taking what Xyrus Said.
And what F.E.A.R 0 Said about a triggered heal; backtrack will not heal what was missed(duh!)
Consequentially the chance that both proc'd is substracted as it is a practical impossibiliity.
Secondly,
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Faceless_Void
See backtrack tooltip ( my assumption is affirmed)
Quoted: "Evasion has priority over Backtrack icon.png Backtrack. When evasion procs, Backtrack can't proc on that attack. "
Coupling this into factor the new chance would be 26.25+25=42.25%
This can also be looked as 25 + (1-0.25)*(0.35)+ 42,25%

Your maths is off Xyrus.
I read you blog F.E.A.R.0 hence i got into researching it. Thanks for that


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 4:51am | Report
KoDyAbAbA wrote:



OFFEND THE MATH GOD AND THOU SHALT BE SMITED BY THE BLUE THUNDERS OF HIS LEGACY!

You have my old quote good sir . i changed it a bit. Please relink as it shows a calculation error

And there is a new math god in town. And he trolls if necessary
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kyphoid returns » November 22, 2014 4:54am | Report
F.E.A.R.0 wrote:


Yes, Faceless Void can dodge anything with Backtrack. Backtrack is not a pseudo-evasion, it's a Triggered Heal (Pre-heal) and cannot be countered by Monkey King Bar because it's not an evasion ability. Backtrack is a RNG ability not a PRD. If Backtrack were a PRD ability, then Faceless Void would Backtrack every damage and nuke on every 4-5 hits. Yes the spell is annoying to deal with but it's balanced, means you can be lucky to dodge something like Laguna Blade or just not dodge it and die.


Can You please go into the nuances of RNG v/s PRD ?
Standard Deviation wise ?
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