Drafting

ok so i know i create a few threads but you guys have helped heaps before and where else will i ask ? haha...


i finally got a decent team, and by decent i mean:

"All 5 of us have played at least 75% of the heroes regularly and have a working knowledge of the other 25% ... combined we have played all the heroes. we all have certain roles we do better then others/enjoy more, and we all have high communication."

plus they are all crazy blokes and are heaps of fun to play with.

so now comes the question.

We are playing a lot of captains mode/draft now (mostly always), usually i go captain.

ive started actually looking at synergy and strategies, basically the main four.

Turtle/late game
Split push
Gank/early game
Team Fight

my problem is that i cant really seem to get a 2-3 set lineups for each strat.

by line up i mean... ban/pick places? who to ban? when to pick which heroes? and also what lineups for each strat?

i try and mix them too (lategame carry with a split push) but i feel like i cant ban who i want to ban to combat the mixed.(or i just dont know who too) also i cant seem to think of heroes that mix well.

any help lads and ladies on how to draft effectively and strategically? and what lineups you suggest?

Just go with whatever start you're comfortable with, it's better to run your favourite Strat and get countered, than to let the other Team dictate the pace, and try to counter them.

As for Ban/Pick Phases...

1st Ban Phase:- Ban popular Top Tier Heroes that can be a threat to you, e.g. Invoker, Ember Spirit, Dazzle, Lycanthrope, etc.
1st Pick Phase:- Grab popular Top Tier Heroes that fit in with your Strat
2nd Ban Phase:- You should have an idea of what Heroes the other team is aiming for, so Ban them, otherwise, Ban more Top Tier Heroes.
2nd Pick Phase:- Try to throw them off with that unusual Pick you've been planning, e.g. you love Ogre Magi, no one expects Ogre Magi. 8{D
Final Ban:- Be cautious of Top Tier Heros that have made it this far and are still viable Picks
Final Pick:- May the force be with you...

If you're having trouble balancing a team, try working one out "on paper" before hand, i.e. what Lineups have you tried running and what problems have you had with htem, which Heroes could you change to fix this, etc.

Failing that, try listing a few of your Drafts here so we can pick them apart! >8{D

Rule #1 is don't (ever) go in with a set lineup, or even a set strategy (especially if you have the luxury of a team that can play a wide range). Ideally you pick your strategy to counter what you think your enemy is doing. Teamfight (group early and push as 5) beats gank, gank beats turtle and splitpush (which are actually very similar strategies), and turtle/splitpush beats teamfight/group push.

I'm actually putting together a guide right now covering the basic team strategies and how to deal with them. Hopefully it'll be up within a week or so.

Feel free to post a couple of your drafts as well.

Imo, you should always try to set the pace of the game to one you're comfortable with, maybe change a pick or 2 as you realise there's that one Hero you could really do with to strengthen your Team, but having a clear plan that gets read and countered is better than having no plan. Just make sure you include 1 or 2 Heroes that can deal with at least 2 of the big 3 Strats.

Being able to handle the other Team's strategy is important, but you can fight Teamfight with Teamfight, etc. Rather than trying to win a game of Rock-Scissors-Paper, it's about building a reliable Draft that can handle anything. For example...
You can go Teamfight with a Quas- Wex Invoker + Clockwerk + Crystal Maiden, add in the Dazzle and it's not easy to go against.

It also has strong Ganking potnetial, since you have Ghost Walk and Hookshot to worry about, not to mention, 2 Supports that can Roam effectively and get Kills with minimal levels and Farm.

Finally, the Weaver provides the Split-Push, should you somehow be unable to win Teamfights and Ganks with this Team, you can even back this up with a Quas- Exort Invoker who rushes Boots of Travel if you want to focus on Pushing right from the start.

hmm so my drafts have been pretty straight forward atm...

Teamfight

ban phase #1: Doom Rubick

pick phase #1: Crystal Maiden Venomancer (safelane supports)

ban phase #2: Silencer Death Prophet

pick phase #2: Dark Seer or Timbersaw (solo offlane) / Invoker or Magnus mid

last ban : this one i leave purely based upon how they have drafted

i usually base my last pick upon how they have drafted. if they have countered well i try and run a hard carry as pick #5 and give me some late game potential. but if i feel a hero could do better against them then a hard carry for example 4 melee or a lot of casters then i change my last pick to some thing different.

if need hard carry:

last pick : one of Faceless Void / Spectre / Anti-Mage / Tiny / Sven

if going a earlier carry or for more team fight :

last pick : Gyrocopter / Luna / Disrupter *i love this guy dont hate hahaha / Naga Siren


honestly thats basically what i usually run for a team fight line up, i might swap up my safe lane supports and maybe my mid between a couple of others but i base it round the fact that they all must have a teamfight option.

my basic gank/early game picks are unchanging haha

5 of these...

Mirana Lina Bane Queen of Pain Ember Spirit [Nyx Assassin]] Night Stalker Bloodseeker Bounty Hunter

Personally, i wouldn't draft towards the late game, your carries should be mid game oriented that are still scary later, just due to the meta. Also, don't get Crystal Maiden if the heros you are going to pick naturally will remedy their mana problems forever I.E: timber saw, Quas Wex Invoker, etc...

Also, don't ban the silencer unless you are drafting a team that absolutely can't function without spells and shows what they are doing before the fight actually breaks out. He is a situational ban.

i ban Silencer because he is basically a massive counter to team fights and to most of my line up ... i.e. Timbersaw Invoker Dark Seer a good silencer can have at mid game over 16 seconds of silence against a single target and/or 8 seconds for two targets ...
for a team fight oriented set up, if we dont get rid of him first or initiate well , having two targets out for 8 seconds in each fight is GG...

i pick Crystal Maiden for her early game help in lane with disable and slow... she stacks really well with a Venomancer i sometimes change her for a Disrupter or a Dazzle.

Hey Xyrus, that looks like an awesome line up, do you have any others? :)

If I were you I'd focus more on Heroes that are almost overpowered at the moment: Invoker, Ember Spirit, Nature's Prophet and Lycanthrope are all first ban material in the current meta. Also, most teams draft two core Heroes (or one at least) in the first pick phase to get the "best" mid game carries that scale into late game: Naga Siren can go mid and rush a Radiance; Slark is a scary ganker and is still good into late game; Doom can farm some utility items to buff his teammates when joining early fights; Centaur Warrunner can rush a Blink Dagger in little time to burst down enemies...

I wouldn't ban Silencer since he's squishy and, to me, is more like an impediment than a game changer: okay, he can silence everything and win teamfights, but when you have a three core lineup a surprise initiation (usually with the Blink Dagger) is all you need, then it's all autoattacks. But it depends on how you like drafting your own team, so I can't really say anything.

As for the supports, they're fine, but you might want to think about Shadow Shaman (early pushing and good crowd control, perfect for mid game-oriented teams), Dazzle (saves your carry, who can even play the game without a BKB with a Dazzle in his team), Treant Protector (good teamfights and synergizes well with tower divers like Ember and Slark) and the infamous Ancient Apparition (his Chilling Touch is seriously op, and the Agh's upgrade to his ulti is one of the strongest in my opinion).

Talking about offlaners, I personally dislike Dark Seer and I don't think he's still strong in the current meta - though many will disagree with me - so I'd suggest something like Clockwerk, Centaur Warrunner , Nyx Assassin (though he's falling off) or simply an aggressive trilane with a safe lane solo.

Your carry picks are also very greedy: I'd always go for Slark, Slardar, Doom, Ursa, Weaver or Luna unless facing a team with no pushing power that lets me get some farm on an Anti-Mage or Sven. Tiny's also an option if you want to pick an Io.

In my opinion, you should draft towards your strategy.

And ban heroes that will slow down or prevent your strategy.

you should invest some time to learn strategy that comes with heroes.
that way you can learn what strategy that they would want to go for when they pick the first hero. Its hard, but not impossible.

Just invest 2 to 5 days watching the international, the teams were redundant in their strategies and you can sort of learn from that.

Other than that, it just gets down to teamwork and learning to adapt to situations :)

You should not have a set strategy or lineup in certain games, but you can always have 1 or 2 heroes that you want to play as cores. Just remember to not limit yourself to certain heroes.

Picking heroes that are very good in the meta is important, but always keep in mind your teammates' and your own playstyles and heroes that you are comfortable with. I.E if your position #1 would be great as a PL considering allied and enemy strategy and lineup but he isn't confortable with playing PL, grabbing an alternative hero that s/he is comfortable with is generally better.

There's a reason C9 picks Luna and Mirana a lot, to the point that enemy teams get so used to it and figure them out, and the reason is stated above.

(This is obviously very bad in play as high leveled as theirs though)

Strategy isn't everything