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Hey Xyrus, that looks like an awesome line up, do you have any others? :)
Sure, that was just a quick example of a typical draft these days. <}3
The basiuc idea behind my Drafts is that I'll focus on 1 Strat at first (in this case Teamfight), then build around the rest of them. Having 1 Core for Teamfight/Ganking/Split-Pushing gives you the versatility to hadnle whatever's thrown at you, so if you go in with this ideal right from the start, it's hard to get countered, since you can just switch to a "Plan B". It's fairly straight-forward to replicate with a few simple steps. First of all...
If I were you I'd focus more on Heroes that are almost overpowered at the moment: Invoker, Ember Spirit, Nature's Prophet and Lycanthrope are all first ban material in the current meta. Also, most teams draft two core Heroes (or one at least) in the first pick phase to get the "best" mid game carries that scale into late game: Naga Siren can go mid and rush a Radiance; Slark is a scary ganker and is still good into late game; Doom can farm some utility items to buff his teammates when joining early fights; Centaur Warrunner can rush a Blink Dagger in little time to burst down enemies...
This is pretty much how the 1st Ban/Pick Phase in my Draft works. I was planning on building a Teamfight lineup, so I knew I'd want to pick a Rat Carry (i.e. Weaver) to balance it out, so I worked out which Heroes at the top of the Meta suited my lineup best ( Invoker), and which ones could shut it down the hardest (Doom Bringer), that's right, 1st Round Ban for a Final Round Pick 8{D. Clockwerk may not be considered OP, but I like Picking him in the First Phase, simply because he's so useful against other Teamfight/Ganking/Split-Pushing Lineups.
As for the Ember Spirit Ban? I had more choices than that, but you can narrow it down. If there is a Hero that counters Nature's Prophet hard, it's Clockwerk. Surprise Hookshots will keep him in place, and Dust of Appearance + Battery Assault will keep him from TPing away. Lycanthrope isn't "Countered" by Clockwerk per say, but Hookshot into Cogs can slow him down, even in his Ult form, since he has to smash a Cog 3 times to get out. As for Slark, I'm planning to 4 or 5-man early on, and I'm confident that Weaver won't be too easy for him to catch out, so he's not that threatening this game. That just leaves Centaur Warrunner , against a Tri-Lane. While it's far from impossible for him to do anything in that Situation, I'm confident a strong Tri-Lane will be enough to secure a Kill on an Offlaner who lacks any Escape Mechanism whatsoever before lvl6.
Ember doesn't care too much about Cogs, due to Fire Remnant and I don't have any Reliable Stuns or Silences to lock him down yet, that makes him the obvious choice for the Ban Hammer.
Banning Doom Bringer is a wise choice, since he's Top Tier atm, but Bannin Rubick is like announcing "HEY!!! DON'T STEAL MY MASSIVE ULTIES PLEASE!!! I WANT TO WIN TEAMFIGHTS AGAINST YOU!!!". Wait until it's obvious that you're running a Teamfight oriented strategy, e.g. you've already got Invoker + Clockwerk, before you Ban the obvious Counter to your lineup, so 2nd Ban Phase is better. If they do pick a Rubick in the First Wave, they're announcing "BRING IT!!! WE'LL JUST USE YOUR TEAMFIGHT AGAINST YOU!!!" and don't pick Heroes with Abilities that are difficult to Steal, or just plain suck without a follow up skill.
As Peppo said, the trends have shifted in 1st Picks, nowadays, picking 2 strong Mid-Game Cores is the way to go in the 1st Pick Phase (it used to be 1 Mid Core + 1 Support if I remember correctly...or was that just me? ._.). If you don't feel comfortable dedicating yourself to 2 Cores that early on, pick up a Top Tier Support like Visage or Dazzle with a Top Tier Core.
I didn't go as far as making up a 2nd Ban Phase, because...I'm too lazy to make a 2nd Draft to justify it ._. so I'll just give my 2p on it.
Start the 2nd Ban Phase off the same way you did with the 1st, i.e. "What OP/Top Tier Picks are left, and which ones are dangerous to me?" The difference being, you can see 2 of the other Teams Heroes, so you can see the gaps they need to fill. Do they lack Initiation and have no Pick off potential yet? Ban Batrider! Do they lack Teamfight and Split-Push? Ban Luna!
Dark Seer is a niche pick these days, he's great for Teamfight Lineups and only Teamfight lineups, other Offlaners like Clockwerk, Mirana, etc. bring more to the table Mid-Game. Also, it's unlikely that an Invoker will still be in the pool by the 2nd Ban Phase, or even the 1st Pick Phase, so snap him up as a 1st Pick, while you can. Magnus is an ok choice if the other Team got Invoker 1st though, Timbersaw can be good too.
The 2nd Pick Phase is where everything comes out, by this point you'll gain an idea of who's Lineup is stronger at what and have an idea of how Lanes can be laid out. Just grab the best of what's left that will strengthen your Team. In my Draft, I picked up a Dazzle, on of the best Supports in the Meta, and a great Lane Partner for Weaver, there is also the possibility of Abaddon is Dazzle is Banned or I desperately need something to remove Stuns, e.g. Sacred Arrow, Fiend's Grip, etc. but Weave gives more Impact in the Late Game. I also pick up a Crystal Maiden because, in spite of the Nerfs, I feel she's still an excellent Support, not for her Aura, but for her ability to Gank effectively with a Root(?) and an AoE Slow + Nuke at lvl2. You can also pick up a Visage here, but it's quite likely he'll be Banned or Picked by the other Team at this point.
As for Final Bans and Picks, try to Ban out the "obvious" choice that would complete the other Team's Lineup. Pick the Hero that fills what you need the best.
i ban Silencer because he is basically a massive counter to team fights and to most of my line up ... i.e. Timbersaw Invoker Dark Seer a good silencer can have at mid game over 16 seconds of silence against a single target and/or 8 seconds for two targets ...
for a team fight oriented set up, if we dont get rid of him first or initiate well, having two targets out for 8 seconds in each fight is GG...
You make it sound like a Silencer counters Teamfight lineups hard, but a Silencer can only Teamfight, meaning it will be a case of Teamfight vs Teamfight, so get a Black King Bar you'll need to build it on 2 or 3 of your Cores anyway since they have a Teamfight lineup, so let them pick Silencer and Counter him with Items. 8{D
Alternatively, get something that can pick him off, like a Batrider or Mirana, they're great in Teamfight lineups, since you can neutralise the biggest threat before they can act. The same theory works with getting a well-placed Clockwerk against a Naga Siren to stop Song Initiations/Disengages with Hookshot.
last ban : this one i leave purely based upon how they have drafted
i usually base my last pick upon how they have drafted. if they have countered well i try and run a hard carry as pick #5 and give me some late game potential. but if i feel a hero could do better against them then a hard carry for example 4 melee or a lot of casters then i change my last pick to some thing different.
honestly thats basically what i usually run for a team fight line up, i might swap up my safe lane supports and maybe my mid between a couple of others but i base it round the fact that they all must have a teamfight option.
my basic gank/early game picks are unchanging haha
Can't really critique a draft without knowing enemy picks and bans...post match ID's.
Main issue I see with your draft strategy is the first round. Doom's a situational ban in my book (he's only great against singlecore lineups), Rubick is never a first ban, and probably doesn't need to be banned at all unless you're going heavy teamfight.
Crystal Maiden/ Venomancer seems to be a really popular firstpick pairing in pubs but I don't really understand why. Two squishy supports with no reliable stun ( Frostbite won't stop Ball Lightning, Leap, etc.) makes them food for gankers like Storm Spirit, Clockwerk, Slark, Nyx Assassin, etc. They're a strong roaming duo (and that's it) but roaming seems to never happen in pubs. If you're going to pick them you need a carry that can survive without babysitting, and you need the rest of your lineup to cover the lack of reliable disable.
Later rounds depend heavily on what you're going against, but I'll say that Silencer is rarely worth a ban, he only does well against heavy teamfight and even then it's not hard to bait his ult or pick him off.
About CM and Veno, I remember hearing from a co-caster (can't remember which one, probably SyndereN, 1437, Demon or Luminous) that picking them both isn't a good idea: While they both are strong babysitters and good gankers in the mid game, they don't scale well at all. CM does almost nothing in late teamfights besides disabling a single Hero, and Veno's ulti gets unnoticed unless paired with another good teamfight Hero like Disruptor or Ancient Apparition; so, I'm with Jakwbreaker. They're also overkill as a ganking duo, you could easily substitute one of them with a different support.
You should also obviously draft towards the heroes that your team is really good on.
For example, yes centaur or nyx offlane might be good, but i kick *** on clockwerk so consider that.
The matchmaking level that you play in is also something you should consider.
For example i play at ~3400 MMR and rising and im not afraid of ember spirit at all.
Becouse lycan is hard to deal with in pubs and punishes mistakes, invoker is stronger IMO, AA makes agressive tri's strong. Ember is a skill intensive hero that not that pubbers play, so if you aren't that high in matchmaking i wouldnt be afraid of him at all. Its not like he is that OP. He is strong yes, but so is puck, and he wont get picked a lot too in low pubs.
About CM and Veno, I remember hearing from a co-caster (can't remember which one, probably SyndereN, 1437, Demon or Luminous) that picking them both isn't a good idea: While they both are strong babysitters and good gankers in the mid game, they don't scale well at all. CM does almost nothing in late teamfights besides disabling a single Hero, and Veno's ulti gets unnoticed unless paired with another good teamfight Hero like Disruptor or Ancient Apparition; so, I'm with Jakwbreaker. They're also overkill as a ganking duo, you could easily substitute one of them with a different support.
Agreed, if you want a really insane combo with venomancer you should pick Ancient Apparition.
Maiden is better paired with a scaling support like visage.
i like to pick Lion and Dazzle a lot,because of the versatility of these heroes,who, when in combination,can wreck the enemy team.I always prefer to have a hard carry in my team (only when im playing stacks).
As requested, another Draft, this one much more Xyrusian than the last. 8{D
I'll be Dire for this one but Radiant will Pick 1st...
Radiant
VS.
Dire
Lycanthrope
Pre-Game Strategy
This is a typical Draft on my end, looking to end with a fast (15:00 - 25:00) Rax, by destroying the other Team with my Aggressive Tri-Lane and having some Global Ganks and/or Split-Push to punish the other Team if they call in their Mid and/or Offlaner to fight back. Anyone who know how I Draft knows my favourite Hero to put in an Aggressive Tri-Lane is Razor, so I base my strategy around this because:
1) It's not a common Pick, so the odds of it getting Banned our Ninja'd or very, very, very...low
2) It's a Signiture Pick, that I've had success with before and am completely confident in
3) I BRING THE RAZORLIGHT!!!
1st Ban Phase
Radiant
VS.
Dire
Lycanthrope
They don't want Ember in this game...nuff said.
I don't want to have to deal with Howl early on as I can only Steal Damage from 1 Hero, and there's no guarantee I can chase Lycan out of all the Lanes, so he'll probably find Farm somewhere if I let him, which would be painful...
A thousand curses upon my enemies! They banned Nature's Prophet, one of my favourite Solo Laners for this Strat. Depending on the Offlaner he's up against he should be able to find Farm easily enough as he can pull his own lane using Treants (Someone suggested this with Enigma a while back, so I'm stealing it! 8{D). Combine this with his Global Presence from Teleportation and Wrath of Nature, as well as his Ability to turn a Gank into a Push with Nature's Call, and you can see how this Ban hinders me greatly....nevermind though, there are always alternatives. 8{)
Centaur Warrunner Ban, because I'm planning on having a Solo Safe Lane, I don't want their Offlaner getting too much Farm, and Centaur almost certainly would, not to mention, his Global Ult could present a few problems as well. He's definitely the most threatening Offlaner they can pick against me.
1st Pick Phase
Radiant
VS.
Dire
DOOOOOOOOOOM! Because he counters anything and makes an awesome Mid-Late Game Carry, I don't know this yet (although it's not a surprise) but they're revolving their strategy around getting this guy Farm so he can remove the biggest threat from a Teamfight. Currently, there are only 2 problems with this:
1) You can Blink in on him and get him before he gets you
2) Certain Heroes can disengage fights or buy time for their Doomed Ally to get to safety/be Denied (I'm looking at you Naga Siren)
Invoker, my alterative, and in some cases an addition, to Nature's Prophet. Since I'm looking to Push early on rather than Teamfight, I can always opt to have him go Quas- Exort this game, for the early double Forge Spirits, not to mention, it makes himn a stronger Laner and gives my Aggressive Tri-Lane Sun Strike Kill-Ste...I mean Secures. Although he's usually run Mid, I will usually run him in the Safe Lane in these kind of Strats.
Clockwerk...remember how I said there were 2 problems that Doom Bringer had? Clockwerk mostly fixes them both. He can interrupt Song of the Siren with Hookshot or use Cogs to lockdown 1 target, leaving Doom free for some other poor sap. It's also difficult to jump the Doom Bringer if the guy that jumps him, in turn, gets jumped upon and Cogged. Aside from that I've already mentioned how Clockwerk is like the swiss army knife of Offlaners, thankfully, he's something that Invoker can handle in lane though <}3
Usually you pick 2 Cores in the 1st Phase, but I pick Visage here because of the Damage output he provides in a Tri-Lane vs Tri-Lane matchup, he's much more important than the other Cores, in that I can substitute them for similar Heros, but nothing will replace my Visage <}3
2nd Ban Phase
Radiant
VS.
Dire
Mirana gets Banned out, because Sacred Arrow is still a big problem for him, and since Shadow Demon and Bane are in the Pool, it's entirely possible I could be looking at them as potential counters
Dazzle is Banned out, because Shallow Grave and Heal Bomb are the last things I want to be dealing with, I'm looking to run Razor and Visage in my Tri-Lane, so Aphotic Shield isn't much of a threat here.
Batrider still a strong Laner and with Flaming Lasso, he can easily become a problem for Doom Bringer.
I don't particularly want a Mid on the other Team that can zip to Top or Bot Lane, and Zap back to Mid, as Storm can move around a lot causing chaos. I'm not even sure at this point that I'll be picking a Mid that can keep him in check.
2nd Pick Phase
Radiant
VS.
Dire
I open with Crystal Maiden because she provides what I want from a Support right now:
1) She's a strong pick for securing First Blood at lvl1
2) She doesn't need much EXP or Farm to do well, and in an Aggressive Tri-lane, she won't be getting much anyway
3) She has a plenty of CC and Frost Nova is a good Harrassing tool once she hits lvl 3 and gets her Aura, it can also be used to give vision in an Area for a short while, so it becomes difficult to Juke that last Soul Assumption
I open with a Support, because once I make my next pick, the other Team will start suspecting an Aggressive Tri-lane, i.e. 2 Cores picked, but no Solo/Dual Offlane Hero. With only 1 Core picked, it's still quite vague as to what I'm aiming for.
Shadow Shaman give the one thing is Team is still lacking, Pushing Powa! His high level of CC is also going to be problematic for our Tri-lane, since only Crystal Maiden can break Chanelling Spells. On top of that, Hex stops you from gaining any Exp or Gold while you're Chickened.
The WTF Pick has finally arrived, after a lengthy decision, I arrived at out Mid Core Hero, Dragon Knight.
Since we have an Invoker in our Safe Lane, and we're going with Razor as our Offlane Core, we want a Mid Hero that can keep up with Doom Bringer in terms of Carry Potential. He's a Tanky Hero who can man-up and fight reasonable well against a Doom Bringer, even if he get Doomed, due to Dragon Blood and most Elder Dragon Form bonuses not being disabled by Doom (not too sure about Dragon Blood, but it's still active afaik). While Doom is probably a stronger Hard Carry, he's not going to be having much fun against our Tri-Lane, while all the DK has to worry about is a Gank from Centaur, so he'll probably be stronger in the Mid-Game.
Also, the Dragon Knight can easily Push his Lane by himself when he hits lvl6, meaning if their Mid Rotates out more than once, they could potentially lose their Mid Tower.
Having plenty of CC already, the other Team opts for a Venomancer, they must know by now that there's an Aggressive Tri-lane incoming, so they'll need a strong Support like Veno.
It's obvious DK will be going Mid, as no one would put him Safe Lane where he's going to have difficulty Bottle Crowing against a Hero that can man up and fight him easily from the start, so do they pick another Offlaner and put the Centaur against the DK? Do they rotate the Doom Mid to find farm? Do they use their final Pick on a Mid Hero? Find out next week on a very special episode of "Xyrus's Crazy Drafting Adventures"!
Final Bans/Picks
Radiant
VS.
Dire
Previously on "Xyrus's Crazy Drafting Adventures"...Considering the other Team still have flexible Lanes, but ours are practically locked in at this point, I have to make sure I Ban the most OP, deadly, Top Tier Hero known to this Meta...
Seriously though, in this Lineup, Sniper actually would be a significant threat. We all know that the only reason he's successful in Pubs is because most players don't know how to shut him down with Ganks and Aggressive Heros, but against a Hero like DK, with Supports committed to a Tri-Lane, he's going to have an easy time Farming early on. I could try Harrassing him with Breathe Fire and Sun Strike, but if he gets a Bottle, he can Heal up, and Spam Shrapnel on my Towers. 8{(
After recovering from their sides splitting open from laughter, the Radiant regroup and consider what they will face in the Aggressive Tri-Lane, considering they have 2 Tanks on their Team, 1 of which is their Carry, they decide to Ban the Lifestealer.
Finally, the time of reckoning is upon us, as Razor is picked up for the Aggressive Tri-Lane. The Radiant decide to pick up a Queen of Pain to move around and Gank.
For the most part a very solid draft. Only thing I would disagree with is the Centaur ban.
I pick Dark Seer regularly against greedy solo safelanes (usually converted mids like Invoker) all the time, you can easily start creep cutting at level 3 and forcing TP support or early tower(s), which would basically ruin your early game strategy.
For the most part a very solid draft. Only thing I would disagree with is the Centaur ban.
I pick Dark Seer regularly against greedy solo safelanes (usually converted mids like Invoker) all the time, you can easily start creep cutting at level 3 and forcing TP support or early tower(s), which would basically ruin your early game strategy.
Hmm...true, it would be annoying, but if you picked a Dark Seer, I would probably put Invoker Mid and break out...something...that can Solo against a Dark Seer. I know I've seen a Solo Lifestealer against a Dark Seer doing what you describe, but can't remember if that actually countered it...it's been too long since I've seen DS in Competetive matches. ._.
If it does work, then switching my Carry from a DK to a Lifestealer isn't so bad. <}3
I actually like their draft better on first glance.
Your strategey is good and if your trilane works you have a good chance of winning, but running razor is VERY all in becouse your lineup cant farm itself back into the game.
Their lineup is also pretty damn hard to push into.
I dont like the invoker pickup, yes he is strong but i feel that he is not what your lineup needs.
You dont have good pickoff heroes at all, becouse DK needs a BKB desperately, so you are going for a deathball lineup that continues to take towers. Reinforcing that by having a scary teamfight ult ready would be better then picking a VERY level hungry hero who provides some forge spirts to the push.
Getting a Tidehunter or Enigma who can do very well solo top and farm a quick mek. Invoker can also do that, but it is not ideal.
The biggest thing that either of these heroes provide is a very SCARY ultimate, the power of it is not just that it good in fights, it is that it deters your opponent from jumping you becouse there is a big ult waiting for them.
The last thing is that the lycan ban wasnt really needed for this strategy, you should slow down his farm for you to get a big advantage becouse of the agressive tri, and you will most likely lose anyway if the tri doesnt work.
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