6.85 and Creep Stacking

I didn't mean "there are 3 methods to nerfing Stacks", I meant "there are 3 methods to Stack" and that rather than nerfing Stacks directly, the ability to Stack should be nerfed.

What if Jungle Creeps level up with time like lane creeps?

• Say every five or six minutes jungle creeps gain 2 armor + 8% magic resist
• Stacks up to 4 times. Numbers are subject to change. Mud Golems may or may not have its magic resistance increased.

If Xyrus's post on 3 types of junglers is true, than based on it the midgame farmers will be nerfed without nerfing jungle-rusher heroes. Ain't this simpler?

This isnt a very out-of-place change considering lane creeps and roshan gain power as time passes. If anything, this is more consistent with the game. And this would further reduce midgame farming, although this may spell the end of Medusa

And as Sando pointed out, stacking was never, technically, a feature. Its a bug exploit and the game does not actually "detect" a stack.

I have a much better Idea:

-Radiant and Dire Jungle cliffs can now be attacked, have 10000 HP(5 regen) and 15 armor;
-Upon destruction every camp in this jungle spawns creeps with 2x HP and 2x damage;
-Every 3 minutes(counting from the moment of cliff's destruction) all the creeps present in the jungle affiliate with the team that destroyed the cliff and start marching towards and easy lane attacking every until the meet on their way until killed.

This will allow for effective smoke cliff raids to turn enemy stacks against them and will help create additional pressure if your team gets map control, but at the same time, it makes games stall less - if enemies can't defend jungle creeps, they lose quickly, and if they can, pushing team is forced to play more aggressively and finish faster as enemies get additional income from jungle and don't have to put themselves at risk farming it.

Exactly. How do you propose to do that? Because as I said previously, even if you change the Helm of the Dominator, the mid hero and the support can still stack. I'm really interested in this since there's maybe some way that's escaping me :)

I like both Dimony and Unscathed ideas. They are interesting and complex. Let's see what the next patch brings.

Dimony's idea sounds too much like Heroes of the storm

The thing is, sure that second group of heroes gets nerfed as well, (The third group almost exclusively needs buffs that would either come about from this, or from the actual game shift it would hopefully cause), but it's not like a lot of those heroes are in good places.

Not to mention, a lot of us aren't talking about making stacks unfarmable, or non-existant, simply making them a little harder to farm. It's a delay in efficiency across the board in order to make rotating for ganks on heroes that by rights should be doing it actually want to do it.

Sure, it's a minor nerf to a majority of heroes in the hero pool. That also makes it a buff to heroes that probably need it. If it makes Ganking actually favorable again, then it's a buff to even more. If it makes farming mids slightly less omni-present, again a buff to other mids who can now slip back in.

Making stacking harder is not really a solution to the problem, because competitive players will simply learn whatever new timing is needed, or whatever. Nerfing it so you have a finite number of stacks is a bigger nerf that any nerf to creep HP or magic resistance, especially to this second group of heroes who often don't have a lane to fall back to.

And a lot of the heroes people cry for about these changes are either ones where buffs are needed anyway (Like Batrider), where there are aspects of a hero that can clearly be made better ( Sand King's passive could actually be changed if his Blink timing is a little slower), or where they need the meta shift in order to be viable again.

Likewise this isn't suggested as the only change, you would still apply nerfs to the likes of SS, or SF, or Lesh ect ect. Buffs to your Batrider's and Timbersaw's. But it's something to attempt to change the games current focus without completely destroying heroes.

the thing is that atleast for me Sando's suggestion kind of came out of the blue. Right now the game is very action packed with a lot more agression in the offlanes for example.
i dont really see where the problem is, supports are being very agressive, and games are action packed. even if stacking was 'so boring' it only happens in 2 ways really.
early junglestacks for heroes like lesh, SF, tiny, lina, and to a lesser degree storm, TA, QOP.
and mostly dominator ancient stacks for the likes of gyro, luna, and some support stacks for bristle, ember, TA.
it is either done by supports who still gank if the opportunity arises.
so i dont know what sando wants so see more, the mid ganking? not realistic, mids mostly countergank when someone in the sidelane is getting killed and he sees an opportunity, just saying 'im going to gank now' is stupid and unrealistic.
even then, very early smoke ganks with a lot or even the entire team is VERY common.

want supports to gank more? they already do that a LOT, and ganking doesnt give that much XP since it takes a lot of time. and isnt always realistic. removing triplesatcks and up might also have a different effect as expected, what if supports just go and pull more to get XP, since they have nothing better to do and need to get XP somehow, they cant leech stack Xp anymore.

even if AOE creepclear spells itself was a big problem i think his suggestion is a really bad way of balancing, you remove a portion of the game and make it less complex, while also nerfing heroes who dont need it.

the heroes that are currently strong arent that because they can clear stacks, they could always do that, it is because they got significant buffs in other areas that made them OP.

How bout this:

In each camp (on each side of the river), there is a pseudo-neutral ward that grants both teams vision of the camp. It cannot be targeted or destroyed.

This way, the other team will know you have a stack, and this will encourage fighting because they want to steal it.

It will also discourage stacking because you don't want the other team to know you have a stack, surprise factor is real.

This is in my humble opinion a bit dumb because you would remove the whole I gonna ward the enemy jungle and make it not obvious.

^This, basically. I absolutely don't get how you can complain about a "boring" meta right now, ESL One and TI5 had the most exciting Dota in a very long time. And I don't think anyone wants the bad old TI4 deathball days back.