Sando's 6.89

AKA lets actually nerf some OSFrog heroes...

Clinkz - Searing Arrows bonus damage is now magical, and does no additional damage to towers.

Ember Spirit - increase cast point (so he actually has one) so he can no longer do dumb **** like dodge an active Black Hole cast on the location of his Sleight of Fist.

Invoker - basic attack range reduced by 40.

Naga Siren - Song of the Siren now has a 0.5 second channel time before activating.

Oracle - only healing from Oracle himself counts as double during False Promise. Every time you cast False Promise on the same ally, the duration decreases by one, to a minimum of 5 seconds. Damage on Fortune's End increased to 100/150/200/250.

Riki - Tricks of the Trade mana cost increased to 100/150/200.

Slark - leash duration on Pounce rescaled to 2/2.5/3/3.5. Duration of Dark Pact damage/purge reduced to 0.5 seconds (damage remains the same). AOE of Shadow Dance smoke reduced in size.

Undying - Tombstone zombies are no longer magic immune.

Phoenix - Sun Ray now scales based on current health rather than maximum health for all targets.

Sentry Ward - can now be bought singularly.

Dust of Appearance - cost reduced to 150. Cooldown reduced to 10.

Mostly because I seem to see the same bunch of pub stompers in practically every game...

Clinkz OP? Now that's the first time I ever saw that one.

Besides, that's a buff IMO.

Because it'll get reduced by only 25% on heroes instead of the 50%-ish reduction from armor.

The damage already can't crit so it's a straight up DPS buff. And since I always go sheep on him it's not like I care about BKB that much.



Yes. YES.



Insignificant nerf. Hero still OP.

Probably do something about Ghost Walk 522 movement speed under dust.
Either that or tone down Sun Strike in the early game, or reduce Ice Wall's 2 second lingering ********.




Naga is balanced out by her lousy laning stage and her weak comeback ability when her team is feeding. Kind of like Anti-Mage. Sure if you're playing support there's not much you can do about that hero but if you're playing offlane, or mid, or even carry...you can really hate on a Naga lineup before she gets 2 items.

Besides song already has a cast point of about 1 second.

Well either that or pick Lion every single game. Picking Lion is the solution to almost every single problem when you think about it :)




That's an absolute must and I have no idea why this hasn't been done yet. Synergy with Satanic is downright broken.




That's pretty overdone though. It's an ultimate after all. And Oracle is really a walking ult after the 30 minute mark, so it still has to be good.




Don't think Riki is OP. And if he is, it's his very early game that needs a nerf.
Since there's no reason to skill ult more than 1 level and you buy skadi every game, it doesn't change that much.




Leash duration is needed in some way.

Reducing the purge delay seems really overdone. If Slark purges your stuns that's because you misplayed or got outplayed. Which is the whole point of the game really : rewarding skilled plays. There's nothing he can do about a good old blink-hex with proper timing. If you went dagger on every hero you wouldn't have that issue :)




Agree that it's pretty silly that they are magic immune. However I think the hero got nerfed enough. Tombstone uptime and bounty increase was a massive nerf.




Sun ray is all his late game, so the skill has to scale well : the rest of his skills fall off pretty hard already. If it's based on current health it becomes something boring like Zeus' passive, it's way better IMO that he can still get kills.
Just reduce the range, decrease the damage (or remove the damage increase over time), or increase the cooldown.




I hate invis heroes camping mid as much as anyone, but that's probably extremely unfair to offlaners if supports always come to lane to deward them with a single sentry without having to pay 200 gold for it. Probably makes Brood unplayable as well, since she's hard countered by sentries in the first 2 minutes of the game and hardly even cares about them afterwards.

That change would be fine...if you couldn't do it in the first 3 minutes of the game.




Agree. But then invis heroes aren't OP so if you buff dust you need to nerf sentries or buff invis heroes directly.

Why no at least make it so that bonuses provided by Quas Wex and Exort get disabled by break?

Clinkz just deals **** ton of damage. That's all he ever does. I don't see how is he OP in any way, he actually used to be really underpowered some patches ago. Clinkz pretty much gets gold from 3 sources - mini-Midas aka Death Pact, tower gold and kill gold. You just take away one of his income sources, even though hero is extremely reliant on early tower kills to be relevant. Really mean and unfair.



?
Rotating to offlane to mess up her lane is one of the best things you can do against core Naga, along with warding her jungle and smoke ganking her, and this is all done by supports. Support players love to whine about heroes like Spectre, Naga Siren or Storm Spirit making their life hell, but supports are the ones who weren't supposed to let that happen in the first place(ofc it's not always possible but then you just got outpicked). If you AFK in safelane or come to "help" you offlaner by leeching exp and doing nothing(I've been playing safelane Storm several times in 3.7k avg party mm, and almost every time there was an idiot who tried to "shut down" my lane but ended up sapping offlaner's exp, feeding us kills and ruining his own safelane) you deserve to lose.


If you want an adequate nerf to Riki, nerf his Blink Strike cast range. You can almost guarantee being safe from BH assaults if you have a sentry in your lane. You can't do the same with Riki because his blink has 800(!) range(most support skills are 500-600 range). Or make Smoke Screen duration AND Blink Strike range scale so you can't just max your ****ing passive on a roaming hero and still own people(like 80% of Rikis do).

How to counter any hero
1) ward his jungle
2) gank him

It's pretty much become a meme at that point. Not that it actually helps you against song.




Probably make his blink scale with levels instead of just being super good at level 1 already. The only thing that needs a nerf is his very early game.

Blink Strike cast range rescaled from 800 to 500/600/700/800
Blink Strike damage rescaled from 60/80/100/120 to 0/40/80/120

That should do it.

Besides, I wouldn't say he's OP, just that heroes camping mid make games boring in general so it's more like a quality of life nerf, like the Bounty nerfs :)


By the way @Sando : where are the Timbersaw and Sven nerfs?

Well yea if you haven't paid attention to the hero at the laning stage(which you really should do if you have the possibility) that's the way you shut them down before they reach a point where you can't anymore. That's how it always was and if that's a meme then "kill towers to win" is a meme too.

And obviously Sando wasn't just irritated by song but the whole fact that Naga is one of the hardest heroes to catch when splitpushing.



The problem with Riki is that you start out as a position 4 and unless you fail early game, you end up as an additional core that creates space instead of using it. He also deals a ****ton of damage(often his final HD is higher than that of main cores) and takes a lot of effort to shut down.

Basically you get another carry without paying a cent for it. That shouldn't happen.

Thanks for all the feedback guys - some good points raised:

Clinkz - probably not OP in pro games, but he's a real pain in pubs. His mid-game tower damage is just ridiculous and so hard to defend against unless he's super-dumb, or you play Blink/Sheep on every hero like Hamster :).

Naga Siren - I do find her ult offensive - in the sense that it's just so hard to counter. Ok it's worthless if you can keep her slapped down hard and end quickly, but I think it's just needs a little more skill to match it's value. You have to channel for 0.5 seconds. That means it can get messed up if you try to just use it whenever (like something much less powerful like Epicenter). A tiny bit of juking, manta usage or whatever may be required. Not just an "We escape now" button.

Invoker - totally agree on the Ghost Walk BS. Yes to that. Throw in whatever else is needed, but mostly I'm thinking if you could make his mid matchup less of an auto-win against most heroes, he'd be much better balanced anyway.

Like the Blink Strike nerfs too - I wanted to do something with it, but couldn't figure out a good way. This would do it. I also find his ult a bit offensive on a hero who's already so difficult to catch, tends to be able to purge dust etc. At least make him manage his mana a tiny, tiny, bit.

Ok maybe I overdid it on Oracle, but a 30 second cooldown on 9 seconds of invulnerability is very strong - combine with Huskar etc. We could try the healing nerf and go from there.

Slark is RIDICULOUS in pubs at the moment, if the player has like half a brain and basic dexterity. The nerfs I'm suggesting are minor. Reducing his window of total invulnerability to stuns, slows and silences from 1 second to 0.5 second every 6 seconds. A tiny bit of scaling on his leash. A tiny alteration to his ult to make it a tiny bit easier to land a stun against a hero who can already purge, go completely untargetable and bounce around like a ******ed gummy bear.

Dust of Appearance is almost useless against so many heroes these days, easy to purge, slow to cd fd for no apparent reason. Invis heroes already impose a large tax on enemy supports. If needs be, limit stacks to 2 size to stop the shorter CD and reduced cost being exploited.

I don't really mind the 3 minute initial limit on single sentries. I would point out that Broodmother would also benefit from it too. If you place yours in the woods and use Quelling Blade active, enemies should have a very short window to try and make use of it.

Sun Ray at the moment is a joke. It's ridiculously powerful, especially combined with something like Chronosphere or Duel. You're winning a fight and suddenly you're losing it hard. I could live with reduced cast range but it probably needs to be more than that. Buff one of his other skills to compensate if necessary.

Undying from what I've seen is still winning games hard. Tombstone is so hard to fight into, even late game. He's a great hero all the way through. This is a pretty small nerf, and only heroes with AOE magic are really helped, but it at least means you don't have to grab a Gyrocopter every game for him.

As for Sven and Timbersaw probably something small...

Sven is kinda hard to approach without crippling him. You could probably target small nerfs at his cleave, warcry or ult. I wouldn't want to take away the overall "sveniness" of the hero though.

Timbersaw I'd say is easier - make Whirling Death actually fit it's description. 14 seconds is not "a short duration". Think his passive could also be toned down a little.

Not sure about how to nerf Sven (except Warcry cooldown which is an absolute must)

...but I can assure you that Reactive Armor is the most broken bull**** in the entire game right now.

Timber maxes it first (standard build is 1/1/4 or even 0/2/4 right now - either way he's 1/2/4/1 at level 8), and he's just literally immortal in the offlane. 32 armor and infinite regen. Nice skill OSFrog.

Timber was buffed for NO REASON. The hero was never bad. I think OSFrog just doesn't understand the difference between "bad hero that needs massive buffs" and "not picked in competitive right now"...

No I mean. 32 HP regen/second. More than 5 Ring of Health. Almost 5 Tangos eaten at the same time that magically stack with each other. On a level 7 hero. Nothing to see here just a pack of frogs smoking crack, move along :)
(of course he can keep it up permanently in lane by aggroing the creeps)

At least revert the regen back to 1/level. The armor is fine, he needs to tank up, but the infinite sustain in lane and complete immunity to harassment (and death) is plain broken.

Seriously :

- Reactive Armor regen reverted from 1/1.2/1.4/1.6 per level to 1 per level
- Reactive Armor is now fully disabled by Break, being hit by break causes Timber to lose all the armor stacks he already has instead of just stopping to gain stacks

Warcry cd nerf would decrease his farming speed pretty considerably(unless that's exactly what you want).

I'd say ******** armor bonus needs to be nerfed heavily(at least to a base of 4x instead of 5x, but i'd go with a base of 3), and also make his ulti cd smth like 120/100/80, right now you can pop it for farming ancients stacks without consequences because it;s downtime is just 55 sec, so you will almost always have it up for a fight.

Actually I am rly baffled about how does Warcry still exist in it;s current state.

Slardar @lvl 11 reduces armor of a single hero by 15.
Sven @ lvl11 buffs his WHOLE TEAM for 20 armor.

wow

That's exactly what I want.

Right now he's the fastest farming hero in the game if you don't count Alchemist.

Either that, or do something about the 1/4/4 build. Storm Hammer value point is just too good.