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6.86 "Pro" Abaddon

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Forum » Theory Crafting » 6.86 "Pro" Abaddon 24 posts - page 1 of 3
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Fedorable » January 18, 2016 8:04pm | Report
So I've been watching the Canada Cup lately and I saw Abaddon make a cameo in two really bad losses. As some of you may well know, I like to play Abaddon and was naturally intrigued to see how the hero would pan out in a pro match, only to be disappointed.

The matches in question:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2081336560 (5-Pos Abaddon)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2088860540 (3-Pos Abaddon)

In the first match, Archon ran Abaddon as a 5-position, with the plan being for him to eventually be their frontline hero. The problem was, he was never able to get the all important Borrowed Time, the thing that lets him be a tank in the first place, quick enough to really be the frontliner hero he was needed to be (granted he did eventually get to level 6, but by then the outcome was already decided). Oh and he had pretty no farm (kinda hard to be a tank when you have just brown boots, a wand and no level 6).

The second match saw Infamous utilize a Dazzle/ Abaddon dual offlane with the Abaddon being played as a core which sounded like it would wreck face paper (if Maut and Zyori were to be believed), but long story short, he failed to have an impact.

And it's not just these two matches where I've seen "pro" players fail with Abaddon, even watching streams, there are times I wonder if anyone is aware of the fact that you can manually activate Borrowed Time when you're stunned/disabled (some exceptions but for the most part, it's a solid escape mechanism in addition to being a good tanking skill). Oh and in that first match? Fluff skilled Mist Coil before even touching Curse of Avernus.

Now, Abaddon may not be the most "meta" hero at the moment, but I do feel like he's slowly been getting some indirect buffs with the new items (lens, glimmer, crest) and I think he can become feasible in some instances.

So, what do you guys think of the feasibility of 6.86 Abaddon? Do players simply not understand what he brings to the table? Is it matter of trying to find out how he fits into certain lineups? And seriously, why did FluffnStuff level Mist Coil at level 2? I'll never get over that.

But, let's discuss Abaddon!

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by KEEP CALM AND FEED » January 18, 2016 8:24pm | Report
Fedorable wrote:

So I've been watching the Canada Cup lately and I saw Abaddon make a cameo in two really bad losses. As some of you may well know, I like to play Abaddon and was naturally intrigued to see how the hero would pan out in a pro match, only to be disappointed.

The matches in question:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2081336560 (5-Pos Abaddon)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2088860540 (3-Pos Abaddon)

In the first match, Archon ran Abaddon as a 5-position, with the plan being for him to eventually be their frontline hero. The problem was, he was never able to get the all important Borrowed Time, the thing that lets him be a tank in the first place, quick enough to really be the frontliner hero he was needed to be (granted he did eventually get to level 6, but by then the outcome was already decided). Oh and he had pretty no farm (kinda hard to be a tank when you have just brown boots, a wand and no level 6).

The second match saw Infamous utilize a Dazzle/ Abaddon dual offlane with the Abaddon being played as a core which sounded like it would wreck face paper (if Maut and Zyori were to be believed), but long story short, he failed to have an impact.

And it's not just these two matches where I've seen "pro" players fail with Abaddon, even watching streams, there are times I wonder if anyone is aware of the fact that you can manually activate Borrowed Time when you're stunned/disabled (some exceptions but for the most part, it's a solid escape mechanism in addition to being a good tanking skill). Oh and in that first match? Fluff skilled Mist Coil before even touching Curse of Avernus.

Now, Abaddon may not be the most "meta" hero at the moment, but I do feel like he's slowly been getting some indirect buffs with the new items (lens, glimmer, crest) and I think he can become feasible in some instances.

So, what do you guys think of the feasibility of 6.86 Abaddon? Do players simply not understand what he brings to the table? Is it matter of trying to find out how he fits into certain lineups? And seriously, why did FluffnStuff level Mist Coil at level 2? I'll never get over that.

But, let's discuss Abaddon!

https://www.dotabuff.com/blog/2016-01-18-pub-tier-list-686
Lookie loo m8! He is meta. He was meta. And he shall be meta.
I spam abaddon in 10v10 matches and wreck faces with 4-4-0-1 abaddon. The **** is really good and not to be trifled with.
Players don't understand that he is like omniknight. He needs to be in the *****torm. You cant play him as a 5 with bare naked boots and a wand. How do you even ask the enemy to attack you? You have to be a threat to them, and you wont be if you are acting only as the aphotic shield carrier that dispel stuns. You have to be aggressive with abaddon to fully utilize him. Keep healing heroes by spamming soulring and mist coil, regen from tranqs; make clutch saves and draw the ire of the enemy. Only then will they attack you, and that will be their biggest mistake for you will live for the next 6 seconds laughing off their faces and healing some people up.


That's the point with these melee supports. They are not hard support material because given a little bit more farm than a #4 makes them bring so much to the table that it is worth it. You have to sail through that questionable laning stage. But abaddon can be aggressive against many lanes and he can make them repent that initiate. He is the definition of counterinitiator imagine aghs borrowed time and you dispel one stun from your team, that is just too big to pass through. Imagine giving all creeps an incentive of AS and MS when they attack a tower. Imagine slowing heroes by attacking them JUST ONCE. He is all this and more, because he is not omniknight that a diffusal can spoil your game.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Cuttleboss » January 18, 2016 9:23pm | Report
Abaddon has a role that cannot be replicated by any hero and very noticeable weaknesses, so I think he will always be a viable niche pick. I mean, no other support is immune to being nuked down (except WK support or arguably Visage) and can remove stuns on a low cooldown (LC support is still not viable). My friend thinks he's the best support of the patch, and playing against him from behind is extremely painful, since he can't die, and him getting Vlads Aghs before minute 40 is usually checkmate (unless the team he's against has some extremely farmed sustained damage carry like PA, DK, or CK).

Abaddon however has some big weaknesses that are easy to exploit. 1st, he is not a great laner, I mean, I pretty much never "lose' my lane as Abaddon, but quite often I'm getting less money than other supports. Dude also can't zone people, but he will always be able to stalemate the lane with apothic spam. 2nd, he can't farm, he has no ability to kill creeps unless he farms a Maelstrom or Radiance. This isn't a problem through midgame if they're fighting (though if there isn't, he's in trouble), but late game, since he also doesn't get a ton of assists easily, Abaddon can easily fall behind in farm against the enemy lower position heroes, which sucks because he scales really well as an aura carrying hero.

Also, Abaddon is a terrible Pos 5 hero. He's pretty dependent on levels and on getting his Soul Ring + Tranquils. Whenever I pick Abaddon in ranked, I always threaten my teammates to pick another support or else I will not buy any support items at all.

Also, I think Abaddon is just as good in a Pos 3 as 4. Not being weighed down by the burden of support items as well as some level of lane farm lets him actually get items at a decent time and be more aggressive but without jacking much farm from the Pos 1-2. It's similar to Pos 3 SK or Jakiro.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by KEEP CALM AND FEED » January 18, 2016 10:57pm | Report
IMO what cuttles said is correct. Defensive strats would trump him since they turtle and Aba needs assists and aggro strat play. and isn't Def>aggro and Greed>def and Aggro>greed?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Dimonychan » January 19, 2016 2:42am | Report
How does Aba not zone out people? You can't fight him under shield with OoV and curse and you can't run either so you better not approach at all. He is actually better at zoning than some ranged supports because he doesn't even draw aggro most of the time. He also farms decently, better than most supports and offlaners - with max shield you easily take neutral camps.

Also it's Aba who owns passive picks not the other way around. He rapes passive safelanes, he can easily navigate and lead gank squads, tank and dive towers and semi-carry Aba is a great highround siege hero, again because of his ability to dive, tank towers and initiate fights and also because he can still hit towers under almost any pressure thanks to ulti.

I'm actually wondering why they run Aba-Venge offlane in NA in almost every high level game. It's like Pa-Omni in low skill russian pubs, but Aba-Venge in highskill NA pubs xD

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » January 19, 2016 4:13am | Report
There is a team - ask someone who knows better about these things the name - that crashed at least two games (that I saw) with an offlane Abaddon and Ogre Magi. That lane was cancer. He's definitively feasible and fits the current meta, where powerfull lanes and teamfight capabilities are preferred. He's also a very complete hero just by himself, having a strong dispel/amazing defensive capabilities/a strong aggressive aura.

What happens is you probably saw people play him in the wrong conditions - whether because they aren't very good with the hero, or because the draft wasn't adequate for it. As a hard #5 he can't indeed tank completely, that should be obvious, so if you want to play him as such you probably need another plan then just the "ran at them bro" one. Like Dimony said, he's an amazing support, because he can zone out and farm better than most support/offlaners. Aba-Venge offlane though, that sounds indeed like a ****ty lane. Why not let him alone there then and make a better use of the Venge.

Imagine this: support Aba with an aggressive core that can dive, such as Weaver. How good does that sound? Instead of tanking with Aba, you're actually just sitting back backing up your diving allies. I also saw some games in the beggining of this year like this, and Aba was decisive then. Problem is mixing the tank role with the support one, at least in the earlier stages of the game.


Btw, see here the top 10 heroes in the 5k+ MMR bracket now, where Abaddon is included: http://www.dotabuff.com/blog/2016-01-17-from-the-ashes-of-winter-wyvern-supports-of-the-new-meta

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » January 19, 2016 5:02am | Report
Cuttleboss wrote:

Abaddon has a role that cannot be replicated by any hero and very noticeable weaknesses, so I think he will always be a viable niche pick. I mean, no other support is immune to being nuked down (except WK support or arguably Visage)


I would have to disagree with you on this mate - you can be nuked down if Borrowed Time isn't active and you take more than your current HP in a single shot. E.g. you eat Laguna Blade on 500hp. You're reliant on manual activation to protect you from this stuff.

Generally agree with the other points, I find him a bit 'meh' as a 5, mana is a constant issue until you get some levels and items to sort you out. And without mana/items you're just a creep who applies a mild debuff and can be ignored until they decide to deal with you.

3/4 is a completely different matter. He can grow into his role properly with a bit of farm and item scaling is pretty good on him. I'd agree though that he's not a particularly aggressive support or zoner. You might be able to partially zone a weakish solo offlaner, but it relies on having mana for shield, and them not being able to present too much of a threat to you. I like him best as a defensive support with an aggressive laner who gets to play even more aggro - Weaver was mentioned and is a good example.

I tend to build him W-E-Q-Q-Q-R-Q personally - one level in shield is sufficient until you get enough mana to really make it worthwhile. The biggest advantage of points in it is the reduced cooldown. Mist Coil on the other hand can save allies, deal damage (your biggest issue really without items), heal you under your Ult and also deny yourself in a tight spot. CoA is worth a value point I think. Obviously there will be games where you need more points in shield.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sp3ctr3 » January 19, 2016 7:33am | Report
I think Abaddon is a really strong support and, while in low level games, he can be played as a core since he is really tanky and he can also deal a lot of damage when he gets some items. I saw a Abaddon using a Mjollnir charge towards the enemies and smack them in their faces, if you figth back he absorbs a lot of damage and you can't really kill him quick enough and if you ignore him he is going to keep is allies save or hit you in your face.
Abaddon is one of my favorite supports, and I usually play him as a possition 3 or 4, and what I like to do is stack auras in myself, since I am tanky and that allows my cores go for more damaging items. Vladmir's Offering is my favorite item, which not only gives you lifesteal, it also gives you mana regeneration and armor, plus a damage aura. Assault Cuirass, Drum of Endurance, Solar Crest and Guardian Greaves are items that makes you a beast in teamfights.
If playing as a core, I usually go for a Mask of Madness + Sange and Yasha + Skull Basher build and Black King Bar if needed.
Aghs in the other hand is an item that is core for the hero, it doesn't matter which position you are playing (except position 5 maybe) since it greatly improves not only your survival, but it also makes your team harder to kill.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by KEEP CALM AND FEED » January 19, 2016 7:56am | Report
Sando wrote:



I would have to disagree with you on this mate - you can be nuked down if Borrowed Time isn't active and you take more than your current HP in a single shot. E.g. you eat Laguna Blade on 500hp. You're reliant on manual activation to protect you from this stuff.

Generally agree with the other points, I find him a bit 'meh' as a 5, mana is a constant issue until you get some levels and items to sort you out. And without mana/items you're just a creep who applies a mild debuff and can be ignored until they decide to deal with you.

3/4 is a completely different matter. He can grow into his role properly with a bit of farm and item scaling is pretty good on him. I'd agree though that he's not a particularly aggressive support or zoner. You might be able to partially zone a weakish solo offlaner, but it relies on having mana for shield, and them not being able to present too much of a threat to you. I like him best as a defensive support with an aggressive laner who gets to play even more aggro - Weaver was mentioned and is a good example.

I tend to build him W-E-Q-Q-Q-R-Q personally - one level in shield is sufficient until you get enough mana to really make it worthwhile. The biggest advantage of points in it is the reduced cooldown. Mist Coil on the other hand can save allies, deal damage (your biggest issue really without items), heal you under your Ult and also deny yourself in a tight spot. CoA is worth a value point I think. Obviously there will be games where you need more points in shield.

I second this skillbuild.people tend to ignore mistcoil and that's a blunder. You are not skilling a nuke that falls off late and has impact early. Plus using mist coil under borrowed time is like so rewarding in and of itself. Just go borrowed time and use mistcoil and u are not relying on enemies to harm you for heals. Plus if you skill aphotic shield, it can take mist coil self damage on itself causing u to be unharmed. The first two skills should be skilled ASAP with a value point in E.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sp3ctr3 » January 19, 2016 6:57pm | Report
Ok, so I have some questions about Abaddon and his counterpart Omniknight.
1- If Abaddon receives a fully upgraded Laguna Blade while affected by Apotic Shield and he has let's say 410 Hp, is he going to die? Or Borrowed Time triggers? The amount of damage should kill you straigth rigth?
2- If I use Mist Coil on an enemy who is low on hp and I kill him, but in the process Mist Coil also kills me, do I get the money for the kill? Or the denie happens first?
3- The damage reflection from Blade Mail heals me while in Borrowed Time?
4- If I am playing Omni and I use Repel on an enemy Dazzle, is he able to use Shallow Grave on himself? What happens if I use Repel on one of his teammates, is he able to use Shallow Grave on that ally?
5- I play in a team with some friends, and I like to play both Abaddon and Omni, and one of my teammates is really good using Omni, is a good idea having them both at the same time in a game? Like in a aggresive dual lane or something, or is that a terrible idea?
6- If they are in the same team, which of them should be the possition 3 and which the #4?
And finally: Which one is cooler?

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