Hero Discussion: Winter Wyvern

Welcome back!

One of my personal favourite supports (after only Rubick and Lion), Winter Wyvern is a force to be reckoned with.

What do you think of WW? (I like to call him YY.)

Supports usually have flexible item choices, let's hear your favourite!

CONFIDENTIAL

I'm actually preparing a guide on her as we speak ;) so I will reserve my opinion for it, ok? Probably will publish it by the end of the week.

Btw it's not a him, it's a her :)

She scales incredibly well over the course of the games without needing any items other than boots and a mobility item. She's an incredibly powerful support, little bit weaker in this meta than she would have been in 6.83 (Where she would have been the outright best support pick of the patch).

Usually I'll go like Force Staff/ Blink Dagger into Glimmer Cape, and then into a bigger piece of utility.

I like Medalion of Courage a lot...

What skill builds do you guys go?

I really don't get how Winter Wyvern got balanced out in this patch. Like, Winter's Curse and Arctic Burn were not OP in any way and they got nerfed pretty hard (IMO burn piercing BKB is the only thing that really needed a nerf)...while Cold Embrace which was literally one of the most broken skills in the entire game...got no nerf whatsoever. And what the hell is this hero doing in CM?

So now, she's kind of a walking Cold Embrace, a 14 second cooldown Ghost Scepter castable on any ally that cannot be purged in any way with a billion cast range (volvo WTF), that allows to instantly counter-initiate any ally who gets focused by making him immune to physical damage, and then cast Glimmer Cape on him which makes him almost immune to magical damage.
Having a WW in your team pretty much prevents anyone from getting focused...unless the enemy team focuses the WW heself.

I mean, Cold Embrace is pretty much her only skill. Like, does Dazzle have another skill than Shallow Grave? Same for WW.

She's actually stronger in this patch than in the previous one, because the introduction of Glimmer Cape completely removes her major weakness : the vulnerability of Cold Embrace to magic damage.

Don't take me wrong, Winter's Curse is a decent ult, but the small AOE makes it pretty impractical and it amounts to a single target stun 80% of the time, unless you're playing against bad, bad players who clump up like rabbits. Or if you have a Dark Seer or something to set it up, but you're playing a pub so you don't.

Items : Arcane Boots, Blink Dagger, Force Staff, Glimmer Cape.

But we shouldn't make a thread about how to play Wyvern. I should be making a "screw the meta" thread on how to deal with those tryhard Wyvern spammers and glimmer abusers.
Never has Disruptor's ability to silence items been more valuable than in this patch. Jump on the wyvern every teamfight...no imba cape for you.

She's not outright unfair unlike the other heroes still waiting to be put in CM (Yeah, sure Cold Embrace is silly, but Oracle and Earth Spirit are way too good for competitive play because they have huge ceilings, the latter more than the former).

I also think that 6.83 played a huge part in it. Like, that's the patch that will go down as one of the most imbalanced in the games history, and part of that was because there were no real counter picks (to Troll Warlord at least) in the CM pool. Thus, in an effort to ensure the death of that meta in addition to the nerfs, the introduction of a natural counterpick with her primary skill to counter said meta was just the final nail in the coffin.

I agree that the spell is way too good right now, but I think what will happen is it will just get range scaling like Shallow Grave - It makes her worse in the early game at counter-ganking, which is a minor enough nerf to me. (Since, the cooldown is comparable to Shallow Grave, and the defensive option being a better saver is fine by me). That and the un-doubted Glimmer Cape nerf should help wonders.

And Dazzle has two abilities that transition well, Shallow Grave and Weave - His ulti is relevant at basically all stages of the game.

The cast ranges to both Cold Embrace and Glimmer Cape (1000 and 900 respectively) are the main problem, it's pretty ******** that WW can counter-initiate from such a huge range without putting herself in danger. As a comparison, Disruption has 600 cast range, Astral Imprisonment 500 cast range, etc.

Both cast ranges should be reduced to 600-650 at most IMO, so it forces Wyvern to commit and put her life in danger every time, and like Venge get focused instead of her carry.

But then, we'll have to wait for the next patch to see that. Right now...we'll have to deal with imba cape in every game, dota is unplayable without Dust of Appearance or Gem of True Sight on every hero, Necrophos is unplayable because his ult deals no damage, etc.
I mean...honestly, for me, a reason why Bounty Hunter is so popular is because he counters the invis from glimmer. For me that's a reason enough to pick him, since you're facing mass invis in every game because of this item (and Silver Edge).

Like, what's even a good counter to Wyvern with imba cape? Disruptor is pretty good once he gets blink and aghs, but apart from him, you really need something to take her out of the fight for a long time ( Bane with Nightmare comes to mind). I mean...is playing against Wyvern that desperate that you need to pick Doom to Doom a support every teamfight? Nice hero volvo.

everyone is talking about Cold Embrace like its the best thing ever...

guys have u seen the cast range for Ice Shards???

just look go on... have a look. seen it? yea thats right.... blink dagger range if you take into account the bounce range and oh the shard that bounced? it follows you.

the thing is on like a 6 second cooldown or something and does like 300 magic damage?


*** that thats super broken. you know why?

because with some form of mana regen she can flash farm...

whys this so amazing you ask? most supports cant farm... really they cant very few have some form of farming ability. supports might get maybe a minute or 2 alone in lane when a rotation happens and oh no poor little support with his poor little attack damage finds it hard to get all the last hits? WW says ***A YOUUUUUU and blasts the **** outa the wave and clears 4 waves in 2 minutes. suddenly that ww who had boots and a wand at 6 minutes in has arcanes and cloak oh 10 minutes later she has glimmer and blink..



that skill alone makes her super ****ing powerful.

^So can SS, Lion, Rubik, Earthshaker, KotL, Dazzle (In a sense), Shadow Demon, any jungling support, Mirana, Sand King, Ogre Magi (Because of Ignite), Jakiro Crystal Madien, Omni, Visage, Tusk, and then support versions of Beastmaster, Naga, Morphling, Lina, QoP, Nyx, Necro, Sven (Because AoE stun and cleave), Tiny, Windrunner and Zues. As well as any and all jungling 4 positions. That's essentially the majority of the support hero pool have some kind of spammable AOE nuke, and thus have varying degrees of flash farming potential.

Sure, there nukes deal less damage (But at least they deal with all the creeps in lane, not all but 1), but all of them have the ability to flash farm creep waves every time they come strolling into lane, and thus all have the ability to transition from no items to some items fast when given some time and space. The difference is, most supports don't sit in lane for multiple creep waves; they are either making **** happen, or reacting to **** that happens.

We harp on about Cold Embrace because it's an ability that scales incredibly well without any gold investment (Because as Hamster says, the range is huge even without a mobility item), to the extent it can win, or at least salvage entire fights.

But then, her entire skill set scales well without a drop of gold other than mana boots. Because all of it's either percentage based, or scales with the opponent, or as you say is spammable enough to be really good wave clear mid-late game. The fact she then gets incredible value out of very good utility items because of synergy with her skill-set just makes it better. Like a hero who has abilities that syngerise with both a mobility item and with Glimmer Cape is amazing by itself, let alone one who has a naturally well scaling skill set.

I feel like that last part got a little repetitive, but what the hey.

but can they all flash farm from over 1500 units away? hmmmmmmmm? for a stagnant mana cost that isnt to big? kotl is the closest you would get. most of them require to be within that range for them to flash farm and as a support by yourself in a lane thats not safe.
cold embrace is awesome dont get me wrong, i just feel you guys are overlooking a super powerful skill which does so well with her other skills.