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So my last scenario was rubbish. Wasn't even named properly. Gotta have that processed meat.
Anyways, here's another scenario. There's a Tidehunter, Earthshaker, Magnus, Ancient Apparition, Enigma, and all the heroes with Aghs upgrades build Aghs (and Blink Daggers obviously). So... What would happen? How would it play out? How would you draft against it? etc etc
Use your imagination.
My draft against it would be Nature's Prophet, Lycan, Warlock, 2 tanky carries. This would give me suficent split push to take towers while they 5 man. This would also let my 2 carries survive the brunt of the spells, and warlock can be very powerful in team fights. The other team also doesn't ahve too much tower push potential outside of Enigma.
The way your team would have to play is tidehunter using ravage to start the fight, magnus using [[skewer to clump 4 of them into blakhole, then have AA ult the black hole, and have the 5th guy who wasn't skwered taken out by Earthshaker. Problem though, is that my team will only have 3 people, and [[warlock sitting in the back waiting for the initiation to counter initiate. My 2 carries, probably strenghth should be tanky enough to survive up to the point where enigma has aghs, but then the porpuse of those 3 heros is to buy time fore NP and Lycan to take rax and force you back.
First, how do you lane them? I assume Magnus mid, Enigma jungle, aa+shaker safelane and tide offlane?
How about: Wraith King safelane #1 - can survive an initiation, draws attention, great carry overall. Kunkka mid #2 - has great counter-initiation through BKB, and reks Magnus mid. Clockwerk+ Dark Seer offlane #3 & 4 (or vice-versa, not that much of a deal) - great allies for LS and Kunkka, good lane killing combo, decent counter-initiation(though wall is pretty useless). Silencer safelane #5 - for Global Silence and lane harass.
So, ideally, every lane is rekt, nice 30-min Blink Dagger Tide :)
They're too many initiators and in my experiences with them, if the other team has a mediocre farmed carry with bkb, the initiators team will obviously lose the game . Because most of their damage are magical from their skillset. (Except enigma, can be a chance).
Balance the roles would be much easier IMO.
I would pick Dragon Knight because of his strength and core item bkb! would pick Lich to destroy position and support lane well for carry. Nature prophet to farm shadow blade and orchid. Alchemist carry so I won't be the only one who would carry bkb (I'm fam of DK). And Timbersaw on the offline because the initiator team does not have a great lane presence (aa does not have reliable disable, duh).
Spoiler: Click to view
The reason why Shadow Shaman is op are his Mass Serpent Ward are pretty good. If they want to nerf him, I think increasing level 1 mana cost and reducing level 3 mana cost would be fine. This can change him as he will need Arcane Boots badly and never going to be hard support again at mid game, he will be kicked out at ease from current meta. That is my suggestion to Icefrog and Valve. Or just leave him alone for a later patch, especially Razor and other heroes. please do not remake their skills unless it's a buff for non-pro scene heroes. The patch should be best for everyone without being disheartened for their favorite heroes..
They're too many initiators and in my experiences with them, if the other team has a mediocre farmed carry with bkb, the initiators team will obviously lose the game . Because most of their damage are magical from their skillset. (Except enigma, can be a chance).
Balance the roles would be much easier IMO.
I would pick Dragon Knight because of his strength and core item bkb! would pick Lich to destroy position and support lane well for carry. Nature prophet to farm shadow blade and orchid. Alchemist carry so I won't be the only one who would carry bkb (I'm fam of DK). And Timbersaw on the offline because the initiator team does not have a great lane presence if they can't go aggressive.
Well magic damage and disables are easily countered but if magnus, tide, or shaker catch five people by suprise, they would be chain disabled and could be chain ulted to death, but then the other team could just constantly avoid teamfights and never 5man push.
Well magic damage and disables are easily countered but if magnus, tide, or shaker catch five people by suprise, they would be chain disabled and could be chain ulted to death, but then the other team could just constantly avoid teamfights and never 5man push.
Your thought what I had thought, and you haven't judged my heroes yet. the bkb duration is 10 sec it may be not that matter, but me and timbersaw can gank early to any lane before 10 minutes. With great nuke and reliable stun, like your Magnus can. but If my team is in trouble, Lich can bring devastating Chain Frost if initiator team are standing still, I don't see how your initiator team can stand up against it. Lich will always stay back no matter what. Your aa and tide hunter can be devastating too.
Instead we can't never 5man push, me and alchemist can farm at ease and we'll wait for initiator team instead until the late game is approaching. Nature prophet will try his best to split push with his desolator and orchid. Though he should be able to gank with just Midas and power threads to control early game. If my team is keep getting screwed by your early gank, it's gonna be very deep details thanks to the amount of initiators and semi carries, though.. Can you push too with just Enigma? Late game will win for my team. As alchemist can farm very fast if played well.
(I usually don't want silencer because I need better output damage to control early game)
Edit: my DK can man up by himself with bkb against initiator team. Explain how you will go against him while nature prophet is controlling the lanes. While initiator team has fragile hp
Edit 2: basically, if my team lost in early game, the initiator team will win. But if the initiator lost in early game, my team will win. I feel I don't need nature prophet in that kind of game unless I want to control the lanes much. I would have picked Vengeful Spirit as a roamer to control early game as well.
Spoiler: Click to view
The reason why Shadow Shaman is op are his Mass Serpent Ward are pretty good. If they want to nerf him, I think increasing level 1 mana cost and reducing level 3 mana cost would be fine. This can change him as he will need Arcane Boots badly and never going to be hard support again at mid game, he will be kicked out at ease from current meta. That is my suggestion to Icefrog and Valve. Or just leave him alone for a later patch, especially Razor and other heroes. please do not remake their skills unless it's a buff for non-pro scene heroes. The patch should be best for everyone without being disheartened for their favorite heroes..
Your thought what I had thought, and you haven't judged my heroes yet. the bkb duration is 10 sec it may be not that matter, but me and timbersaw can gank early to any lane before 10 minutes. With great nuke and reliable stun, like your Magnus can. but If my team is in trouble, Lich can bring devastating Chain Frost if initiator team are standing still, I don't see how your initiator team can stand up against it. Lich will always stay back no matter what. Your aa and tide hunter can be devastating too.
Instead we can't never 5man push, me and alchemist can farm at ease and we'll wait for initiator team instead until the late game is approaching. Nature prophet will try his best to split push with his desolator and orchid. Though he should be able to gank with just Midas and power threads to control early game. If my team is keep getting screwed by your early gank, it's gonna be very deep details thanks to the amount of initiators and semi carries, though.. Can you push too with just Enigma? Late game will win for my team. As alchemist can farm very fast if played well.
(I usually don't want silencer because I need better output damage to control early game)
Edit: my DK can man up by himself with bkb against initiator team. Explain how you will go against him while nature prophet is controlling the lanes. While initiator team has fragile hp
Edit 2: basically, if my team lost in early game, the initiator team will win. But if the initiator lost in early game, my team will win. I feel I don't need nature prophet in that kind of game unless I want to control the lanes much. I would have picked Vengeful Spirit as a roamer to control early game as well.
So basically against a team of initiators you need to control the early game, not get caught out of position, and split push ?
Yeah, controlling early game can change for more golds and xp, if you ever faced initiator team and somehow you won, you can see how small output damage they are in late game. Alchemist and Dragon Knight can survive it with bkb. And initiator team has really high cooldown so we will keep pushing.
Not by position. Just control the early game does really matter because the initiator heroes does not scale well with chaining abilities.
Though the facts we got here.. I can't really predict who will win. a team with balanced role can probably win the game.
Spoiler: Click to view
The reason why Shadow Shaman is op are his Mass Serpent Ward are pretty good. If they want to nerf him, I think increasing level 1 mana cost and reducing level 3 mana cost would be fine. This can change him as he will need Arcane Boots badly and never going to be hard support again at mid game, he will be kicked out at ease from current meta. That is my suggestion to Icefrog and Valve. Or just leave him alone for a later patch, especially Razor and other heroes. please do not remake their skills unless it's a buff for non-pro scene heroes. The patch should be best for everyone without being disheartened for their favorite heroes..
As with most theoretical lineups that invole a Jungler, the easy way to win is with an Aggressive Tri-Lane that turns into a Deathball strat. GG at 20:00 8{D
My strategy : Squeak squeak. Full rat dota, never fight a single teamfight, just split push and gank all game long.
Baloney's 5 heroes are useless outside of teamfights and they cannot gank. They're not very good at pushing either with the exception of Enigma.
Baloney's team lacks disables, so a Weaver, Anti-Mage, Morphling or Storm Spirit are pretty good counters to this lineup, they are unstoppable split pushers with e.g a Linken's Sphere.
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http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guide/cold-as-your-heart-8079
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http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guide/the-earth-trembles-8212
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