The 6.88 Discussion Thread

That might be the reason behind our disagreements over all the recent patches. I tend to prefer competitive balance to anything else, because I really enjoy watching good games, over pleasing pub players. Osfrog also goes more for the competitive it seems.

As for eye candy, that remains to be seen, as the changes we have been experiencing in the last patches are more and more subtle, and I believe it's because of what Sanvitch says; better to do x number of small changes until you get what you want instead of 1 big one that might be too bad or too good.

Pick rates and balance are obviously not the same thing, but it's still nice to see a Major competitive event that had 95 out of 110 possible heroes see some manner of usage. And I think like all but 7 of them saw some bans as well.

It's obviously not a statement of balanced power levels, but its lovely to see all the same.

I also personally think it's insane to balance a competitive game around anything other than the competitive scene. Because the fine details of balance will always mean less and less as you go down in skill levels.

I agree with the fact that there are many heroes that are situationally viable, and it's a good thing.

However, IMO dota needs to be balanced around high level pubs as well as competitive. It really makes no sense to balance out a game around competitive only.

Pudge is a great example. OSFrog wants to make him as OP as possible until the pros start playing him. While he's already mass picked as a roaming support in 5K+ MMR pubs. That's the worse way of balancing a game I can think of.

That's the main issues I have with balancing in dota :

* Only caring about competitive and not 5K+ MMR pubs. Which is downright stupid because you ignore the most important source of balancing data, by far.

* Only caring about pick rates and not actual hero strength. If you made the game, you should be able to evaluate the strength of a hero independently of his pick rate. Win rates in competitive don't even mean anything unless you look at entire seasons and heroes with 150+ picks, because there are far too few games for it to statistically mean anything.

So at the end of the day balancing is only based around trends (pick rates) to create other trends (the new patch meta). Hence the expression "OSFrog lottery".

~ Random Sofa comment passing by ~


Lots and lots of small buffs to everyone. I like it.

Things that stood out to me:

Bane: Whoa, I thought the ability was good before...
Crystal Maiden: I didn't think she needed more buffs...
Enigma: That's actually a pretty big buff. But no one uses BH for damage anyway.
Jakiro: Whoa - Ice Path is pretty insane now imo.
Kunkka: Definitely OP now.
Phantom Assassin: WE DID IT BOYZ
Shadow Fiend: Imma start playing him again. This is actually a pretty big buff.
Warlock: HOLY MONKEYS OPOPOPOPOPOPOP

yay butterflies and bloodthorns for everyoneeee

It's not about pick rates only, obviously. What sense would it make for instance to nerf a hero that's picked a lot but that is not that successful? It's mainly about the combition of pick and winrate, together with the pro scene now, and the opinion of people they consider more important to please (not necessarily reddit, that's what I mean). It sounds very good to say "they should take into account the actual strenght of the hero", but: what does that mean exactly? It always comes down to the opinion of the players, there's no obvious fact of "this is too good because I think so", and to compensate for the partiallity part of this you gotta use some tool like numbers, to get as close as possible to a balance that pleases everyone.

Since everyone is agreeing that the game is more balanced now than ever, I think it's safe to say they have been doing a good job, contrary to what 60% of the dota community has been complaining about for the last patches (including silly LoL comparisons). For me this is enough to justify keeping doing it like they are doing it now, instead of balancing around 5K+ MMR pubs (which let's be honest, are still just pub players that grind a lot and have their passions and hates just as much as the other skill levels).

I have been away from Dota for a really long time, I didn't play a single game in the whole 6.87 era, so now I'm a little bit lost. Is PA a thing now with the new Phantom Strike or that's not enough to make her a good carry.?

Try her as an offlaner maybe, with Vanguard into Abyssal to jump around bashing everyone through BKB while your real carry does the DPS. Add a Vlads into that build and I think you've got potential.

Sorry to post again about PA, I started playing her with a Vanguard, Vladmir's Offering, Desolator build, so I can figth early on and try to snowball the game with early kills. Is that a good way to play her? Also, if I need more dmg with her, going Monkey King Bar is a nice pickup, but what other items should I consider, since Abyssal Blade gives no dmg now.

Another question, is Echo Saber a good item in Troll Warlord? Should I even bother about playing Troll? I feel like he is going the rigth way and the hero is strong rigth now, but I'm just a n00b, so I can say I'm right.

You have Daedalus on PA as well. You still get 85% from the crit's damage since it procs when your own crit doesn't. It gives you more damage than any other item.

Echo Sabre is literally the worst possible item you could buy on PA. Phantom Strike is limited to 4 hits so it's completely redundant to get attack speed during that time. Attack speed is already pretty bad on PA in general, but during the Phantom Strike hits, it's downright wasted.

PA is more like a semi-carry right now. IMO she's an offlaner now, the dagger rework allows her to get last hits from afar even with level 1 dagger. Kind of like Legion Commander.

Troll Warlord is completely legit. But you need Sange and Yasha on the hero. Since the SnY buff that increases the proc chance, it's really a no-brainer. The standard 6.83 build (helm aquila SnY BKB) is still the best build on this hero by far honestly, it's even better now than in 6.83. No reason to deviate from that build.

Tera's guide to every Agility carry ever (and some Strength ones):

1. Does this hero have good stats, or illusion synergy? Alternatively, does the enemy team have something you want to disjoint, or towers you can split push?
Buy Manta Style, and go to 2.
If not, go to 2.

2. Could this hero benefit from any of the following: stats, extra health, a slow, more mana.
Buy Eye of Skadi, and go to 3.
If not, repick.

3. Buy Manta Style.