6.85 and Creep Stacking

Doesnt that sound like the lamest thing ever though?
If teams really thought it is such a big deal as some people heroe think wouldnt they just block the camp?

Time issues. You don't want to leave lane to block a camp, you might die etc.etc.

Also, you want to be stacking your own camps, right?

And no one has the money to block all the camps.

Do you not realise how much information that gives? You can essentially use it to work out where the supports are, where cores are, whether the enemy is farming out your jungle or there jungle in the late game. As well as just devaluing offensive warding, and reducing the power of late game map control.

Vision is incredibly important. Giving neutral vision over anything changes the game in ways we probably can't guess at, and probably for the worse.

As for the thing about the games being interesting;

I personally think that the game is interesting right now, but it is still a ricing meta. It's simply an accelerated one, an incredibly accelerated one. If anything, it's actually a little more of a ricing meta than the last patch strange as it sounds.

The fights are exciting, and enjoyable, but it's not as much of a fighting meta as people think it is.

maybe a map change? making it take a longer time to move from camp to camp, even with quelling blade.
The problem is, this once bug is now essential to many heroes (AM, dusa), and its not easy to just get rid of it without seriously damaging those heroes.
Adding on to the map changes, making the camps harder to clear and the jungle easier to access for the enemy team may make it harder to clear camps because A) it takes longer and B) higher risk of ganking

I, same as Timm, do not see the problem is stacking, this is exaggerated, and it's just heroes that rely on stacks are in meta right now, not the other way aroung.

And yea, obviously my "suggestion" lacks kappa in it, though I think Kyfoid would like it.

Exactly, nobody has time to get extra sentries because it isnt worth it, they would rather spend it on smokes or items like boots which help them gank.
So it isnt a big problem.

And apart from having very specific heroes on the team and playing against an enemy where you can do it against, there isnt being triplestacked much outside of the earlygame.

I dont know where this is suddenly coming from, sando started a real circlejerk. :P

If i wanted to reduce it, which i dont see the need to i would start with something simple like making sentries able to be gotten single. Which means you sont have to invest in unneeded sentries earlygame.

The games were reasonably entertaining, but I think this had more to do with the strength of the comeback mechanics keeping it tense, and the accelerated ricing meant they didn't generally overstay their welcome.

However, in terms of Kills Per Minute, the International 2015 main event was extremely low, historically. People played very low risk DOTA (obviously, with so much money at stake) and stuck very much to the "secret" style, with some minor variations (such as CDEC's added early core gank).

I liked that teams played well around the gank/teamfight/split styles later, but nobody really looked to do anything different from ricing the **** out of their own jungle at level 7 with their cores. Then maybe getting a quick kill. Then ricing like crazy for a while longer. Even the supports had high levels of passive farm (look how many kills happened on solo supports pushing lanes out). There was no early pushing at all that I can think of.

I'm not saying we should go back to deathball, but other styles need to be made more viable.

I don't see that limiting the availability of jungle stacks/gold is really going to destroy the game in the way that is sometimes being suggested. If anything, doing nothing simply means the situation will continue. This genie will not go back in the bottle easily.

Again, for the record, I'm not opposed to stacking in any deep seated pathological way. I enjoy it as part of the game...but it's become a major strategic blocker. Something has to change.

The more I've read through everyones suggestions and thought about it, the more I'm thinking a "stack limitor" might be the way forward. Simply put, each side of the map can have X total number of stacks present at any time. Any further attempts to stack are unsuccessful until previous ones have been cleared.

So for example, you'd have 1 stack spawn at every camp on 00:30. Your team can now do a total of say 3 extra stacks - say 3 x double stack, 1 x quad stack...whatever. If you decide to double stack your pull camp to use that - fine, but you'd better clear it out when you want to build more valuable ones elsewhere. Do you prioritise your ancients or hard camps next? When will your cores be ready to farm them?

I think this frees your supports to be more active, and you can still build a nest egg for your solo mid, offlaner or even your carry if you want. People can get a burst of gold, but then will need to go do something else afterwards - farm a lane, or go gank. Maybe we'd see teams blocking their own small camps to allow more in the bigger ones?

Another option I quite like would be to simply change some hard camps to easy camps. This might make more heroes viable junglers, while also reducing the total amount of gold/xp that's available in the jungle.

I think some map changes to make the jungle more accessible would also help, as would cheaper/easier access to sentry wards. As in my 6.85, I'd like to see their cost reduced, and available in singles.

As for programming this - it's trivial.

Buff hero kills even more -> decision between hero and creep kills becomes harder.

But Sando, if that's the problem that you have, don't you think that we should increase the potential gold gotten from pick-offs/ganks instead? I mean, why would you need to nerf the stacking, and therefore making some heroes obsolete, if you can increase the diversity of game plans by increasing kill gold potential? I mean, this way will make teams adopt a more aggressive plan that is much more rewarding (albeit less safe) than finishing the jungle. I think that the problem currently (like some people state previously) is that the creep stacking provides (almost) as much as kill gold, but with much less risk. So if we increase the kill gold by a lot, it would be a viable high-risk-high-gain strategy, right? I think it is possible to work on this idea instead of saying that the creep stacking is a problematic mechanic.

If not, I like the idea of stacks limiter, it would certainly be interesting to see supports blocking their own camps.

Mmhhh, my suggestion is to make stacking only possible every 2 minutes. That doesn't mean that cleared camps don't reapawned as usual to not Break junglers or AM without investing much adjustment.
So there's more versatility like the change with the added bounty rune to encourage more fighting.
But I'm quite unsure whether at 1:00 3:00 or 2:00 or 4:00. On the one side supps should walk much bringing much movement into play on the other side supps have to make the decision to stack or to secure runes.