6.84 Ember

You realise it doesn't matter how much you dislike BKB, you simply have to buy it some games. You have no choice in that, there will simply be games where the CC or magic damage is so high you need the immunity. Even if in theory you can dodge a lot of them with mechanical skill, there will still be games where you have to, because those will be games where being hit by a single piece of cc will let you be stun-locked down and killed, or controlled and killed. And that's simply because BKB is an item every core in the game has to serously consider, whether or not it's good or bad on the hero.

And again, the issue with Ember Spirit is that he's just a less reliable Gyrocopter, or Luna. They are heroes whose damage out=put has multiple peaks, and the issue is he's worse at getting from his initial peak to his secondary peak, due to farming slower, and thus being more reliant on getting things done in his initial window. If he has a poor start, his initial window is made smaller, thus his ability to get things done is lessened, and thus so is his ability to transition smoothly.

If you get things done with him, then he's an amazing hero. It's just being reliant on getting things done can be a poor thing when better, or at least more consistent alternatives exist.

Oh I forgot an item in the previous discussions; I actually really like casual Yasha, or Yasha into Manta Style before going into BF. Yasha is just a really efficient item that helps increase your farming speed, so giving it to Ember Spirit is actually really nice, because it gets him out of his down period more quickly.

I've been thinking about what team composition(enemy team, I mean) Ember benefits the most, and it really looks like it cuts both ways - on one side, nuker-heavy team will allow Ember Spirit to be more reckless in fights as early on(when Flame Guard is mots relevant) few heroes offer enough magical burst to bring Ember down with lvl 4 Flame Guard, but he loses in damage because it is quickly snuffed out. With physical DPS team he can keep his shield for full duration easily, but he is at serious risk of being killed quite quickly with his pathetic armor and health pool. So I think against physical DPS it is a good variant to make emphasis on Q and W, putting only 2 points in Flame Guard, because it offers the most for a single skill point: 300% protection increase that can still swallow one non-maxed(and if it is a phys. DPS team, cores will most likely have no good nukes while supports will be underleveled) almost entirely and 33% more damage that is still enough to burn enemies up and farm with reasonable speed.

Pairing him with some king of tanky initiator like Bristleback or Centaur Warrunner against caster teams may work too, as these heroes force enemy to focus themselves or stop themselves somehow, so EMber may enter the fight quicly with Remnant and clean everything up wihthout the risk of being burst down.

I disagree simply because Ember as a hero has tools to deal with these kind of things. Unlike Luna or Gyrocopter, 2 carries that usually rush into fight with bkb and deal damage with spells, Ember can avoid most trouble with wise usage of skills. Silences are countered by manta, projectiles are countered by manta, linkens, sleight and remnants, slows are countered by manta, sleight and remnants, magic damage is countered by raw hp, pipe, sleight, remnants, cancelling animations with chains, physical damage is countered by armor, hp and fighting at range and all strong cc ultimates except ravage go through bkb.

EDIT. Obviously I agree that if enemy is overloaded by stuff countered by bkb then you can just buy this item and finish the game, but most of the time a good ember player will be able to do his job without magic immunity.

I never understood the purpose of Manta on Ember honestly. As a hero with poor stat growth who gets no stat items except occasional Skadi and basically everything he relies on and draws strength from does not work on illusions. Pay almost 5k gold for one dispel and a tiny bit of damage? I would rather bet Linken's or BKB as they offer much more protection.

i can understand the idea behind yasha on ember but manta just sounds really underwhelming. maybe if you only have 1 thing to dispell and dont want a BKB i guess?

A lot of silences in this game are AOE and Linkens does nothing against them (e.g Drow Ranger, or Death Prophet). If you're reduced to having to blow Black King Bar charges to dispel silences just to escape...you're getting really, really desperate. Manta Style gives you the dispel.

But I'd rather buy a Diffusal Blade for the dispel though. Diffusal gives you up to 55 attack damage (30 agility + 25 from mana burn) and some INT...much better than manta's 26 damage. And diffu is way cheaper.

Stats and Movement speed? Idk, what about Guardian Greaves Ember? :P

Just a bit of extra stats over and the same MS boost as Yasha. If anything, I would upgrade it to SnY, not Manta.

Well Manta Style gives you HP (Sure, 190 HP is not a lot, but it is essentially an extra nuke you can survive, and thus can be considered), gives you move speed, gives you better/same int, it also allows more more clutch plays, which if you are the kind of player already dodging a lot with say SoF, you can probably be making Manta Dodges as well. It's the less aggresive option I'd say.

But yeah, essentially Manta Style is a pick-up for the de-spell. And often you only need the one despell or one dodge to get out of immediate trouble unless the enemy has levels of lockdown that require you building BKB.

Well Ember already has 2 skills to dodge projectiles...adding manta-dodge to that is kind of overkill.

Was just saying this because I don't see enough Diffusal Blade Embers and WAYYY to many Eul's Scepter of Divinity embers. Stop trying to be Arteezy pls :)

BTW it's actually 60 damage you get from diffusal 2 (not 55 like I said, I don't know that stuff by heart)

45 damage and debuff purging for 3150 gold. Sounds pretty core agaisnt silences if you ask me.