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Yet another rework to Phantom (MMR) Assassin

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Forum » Theory Crafting » Yet another rework to Phantom (MMR) Assassin 31 posts - page 3 of 4
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by YellulzQuiet » May 31, 2016 10:06am | Report
Hamstertamer wrote:



No, no. That would be OP and it's not what I made. What I made is an active, it doesn't trigger automatically like linkens does. That's a big difference. It also doesn't do anything against instant skills like Hex or Reaper's Scythe unlike linkens.

See it more like a weaker version of Dark Pact with a much longer cooldown. Linkens PA would be like Linkens Slark...without the other escape skills Slark has.

My new Blur simply has an active that disjoints everything thrown at you when you activate it. Like Windrun does. Or like Blink does - except you don't move.

See it more like activating a deflector shield XD

Do you think she need it on top of having a magic evasion ? i mean the frog introduced us the meme infused raindrop, and we already build BKB, sure she needs another magic defense(if is that so, then why not just give her a dispell at W) ? :0P

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » May 31, 2016 10:42am | Report
YellulzQuiet wrote:

Do you think she need it on top of having a magic evasion ? i mean the frog introduced us the meme infused raindrop, and we already build BKB, sure she needs another magic defense(if is that so, then why not just give her a dispell at W) ? :0P


She lost almost all her physical evasion though, so she's pretty much out of a defensive skill outside of that in the mid-game.
I agree that her reworked skills make her more like a real Anti-Mage. She lost almost all her physical defense and gained important magical defense. But lost HP.

But then that makes it more logical to fight in the mid game with her. More resistant to magic when it's relevant, and before right-click comes online.

Her late game is definitely far better, but I don't think I even made her better in the mid game. Her only mid game buff is to remove the need for a regen item like urn and allow her to rush deso.

Maybe she's OP in the late game I don't know. But she still farms extremely slowly so I don't think that's a major issue.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by ChiChi » May 31, 2016 10:46am | Report
My comparison with TA was not considering patches, look at it more as "where the hero stands now", after all the patches she was subjected to, including the latest one, which nerfed and at the same time buffed or, let's just call it changed her. Another example that might help: Sniper. He has low pick rate, lower winrate than normal, we virtually don't see him in competitive, still no one complains, and why is that? I think it's because most people find the hero boring and don't want to see the return of a meta where he is strong, like the one we had with him and Troll.

Now PA: I do think she's almost fine, she just needs more practise and new builds (you never commented on the actual winrate of the hero that I told you above, btw, at the level of a Nature's Prophet).

But you do have convinced me of something: since the hero right now feels limited and the community would like it to be more flexible, why not. And some of these ideas suggested might be interesting, although I really don't like the concept of giving her lifesteal (because of it being too good like I explained above and doesn't suit the hero concept). The rest I'm ok with, at least in abstract - I still would prefer one change to be implemented at a time, carefully, to indeed make sure not to create a meta monster, which is always a risk when we want to buff and alter a hero. So for instance maybe only start with either the change to Blur or to Coup de Grace. I also like to maintain the idea of the hero fighting early, that's nice about her and it makes sense as it is, IMO.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hamstertamer » May 31, 2016 11:07am | Report
ChiChi wrote:

Now PA: I do think she's almost fine, she just needs more practise and new builds (you never commented on the actual winrate of the hero that I told you above, btw, at the level of a Nature's Prophet).


What do you want me to comment? Her winrate is bad but not completely in the dumpster? It's the 22th worst and not the 3rd worst after Arc warden and Techies like where it should be IMO? The stats just show that the hero is bad and not completely garbage? With the possible error due to her low-ish pick rate and how small the 5K+ bracket is in number?

At most it could mean that the 3 last patches didn't kill the hero completely and just made her bad. She still lost a ton of things and gained absolutely nothing from these patches. It's still a mediocre hero trying to adapt her build to make up for completely unfair indirect nerfs. It's still a hero that lost a ton of viable items without anything to make up for it and is trying to contend with scraps.

Also note Bristleback's 3.22% pick rate. Pretty much sums up my mind about the hero right now XD
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Safecyn » May 31, 2016 11:22am | Report
Just in the interest of keeping facts straight:

Phantom Assassin win rate, this month: 50.88%

Phantom Assassin win rate, this week: 51.24%

Phantom Assassin pick rate, this month: 29.79% (#2)

Phantom Assassin pick rate, this week: 30.00% (#1)

I make no assertions or implications from these facts, only state that they are, in fact, facts.

EDIT: These are the numbers across all MMR brackets, of course. So there is that.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Dimonychan » May 31, 2016 11:30am | Report
Quoted:
These are the numbers across all MMR brackets, of course


Key words. I.e Wisp's overall winrate is something like 40%(I know for sure that it's sub 40 below 3k). So overall hero winrate is completely irrelevant.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Safecyn » May 31, 2016 12:12pm | Report
I like how you just casually toss that out without bothering to do the research yourself XD.

PA's winrate does in fact go down with each MMR bracket, until she's holding at 46.45%. Was this said already? I may have missed this if it was said already.

Interesting to note, this makes her, statistically speaking, a better mid than Queen of Pain right now, who is picked twice as often and only has a 46.18% win rate.

Brewmaster has a 0% pick rate in 5k and that makes me sad. ;_;

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Dimonychan » May 31, 2016 12:36pm | Report
I like how you "do the research" based on a completely irrelevant fact.

Because if a hero has a higher winrate it makes this hero better than the other =)(not).

I don't know what is that "doing the research" line meant, I just re-checked in case something changed, and no, Wisp still had an absurdly low wr in lower brackets and a good wr in a higher bracket, what I basically said. Or what was this lune supposed to mean, overall hero winrate giving any clue about hopw good the hero is(hello autumn '13 unnerfed Earth Spirit, 31% winrate, hi there 6.86 Zet, barely 42% wr after the dust has settled, greetingz qop who has never in my memory crossed a 45% overall winrate border even when she was meta and picked/banned almost every single match(I think it was somehwere in .83-.84)).

If you want to get an approximation if the hero's good you look up his stats in 5k+. Even then, those are very inaccurate because meta heroes have lower wr because a lot of bad players pick them up(a very bright example was Windranger with sub-50% wr in 6.85(or was it .84, I often mess patches up xD)), some heroes are forgotten, and some are underrated.

Dota is not a game you can easily explain with statistics or theory so u can't just take some number and say that it reflect how things are in reality because it doesn't

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by YellulzQuiet » May 31, 2016 12:38pm | Report
ChiChi wrote:

My comparison with TA was not considering patches, look at it more as "where the hero stands now", after all the patches she was subjected to, including the latest one, which nerfed and at the same time buffed or, let's just call it changed her. Another example that might help: Sniper. He has low pick rate, lower winrate than normal, we virtually don't see him in competitive, still no one complains, and why is that? I think it's because most people find the hero boring and don't want to see the return of a meta where he is strong, like the one we had with him and Troll.

Now PA: I do think she's almost fine, she just needs more practise and new builds (you never commented on the actual winrate of the hero that I told you above, btw, at the level of a Nature's Prophet).

But you do have convinced me of something: since the hero right now feels limited and the community would like it to be more flexible, why not. And some of these ideas suggested might be interesting, although I really don't like the concept of giving her lifesteal (because of it being too good like I explained above and doesn't suit the hero concept). The rest I'm ok with, at least in abstract - I still would prefer one change to be implemented at a time, carefully, to indeed make sure not to create a meta monster, which is always a risk when we want to buff and alter a hero. So for instance maybe only start with either the change to Blur or to Coup de Grace. I also like to maintain the idea of the hero fighting early, that's nice about her and it makes sense as it is, IMO.

Both Sniper and Troll Warlord have been really buffed in term of itens and skills, and they have a consistent build to play (Sniper : changes to towers, starting strengh, he have gained Hurricane pike and Blight stone, MoM is less ****, buff to damage of Q, Troll: have gained Infused raindrop and echo sabre, also huge buffs to Sny as it scale better with AS, buff to fervor and axe), PA in otherwise was mostly nerfed and dont have a consistent build (Nerf to laning phase, Helm Bkb and Basher nerfed in last patch, almost no damage item to compliment her critic)

Dont see the trouble with templar, she have gained Blight stone and Hurricane pike, almost every item she makes are being buffed patch after patch, i think we will see more of templar when Batrider, invoker and Phoenix get out of the meta, i think her main issue is that her counters are most buffed and no team wants to pick her because of that

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by michimatsch » June 1, 2016 12:58am | Report
Quoted:
I don't agree with Michi here, and not because I'm not a "support activist" :P but because supports are already supposed to be focused down by any good cores in teamfights. That doesn't change with Hamster's idea, it's just something innerent to the game and ok, and that makes support positioning so much more important in the early to mid game (where most of the times, contrary to Hamster says, they still don't have those defensive items farmed).

I forgot to put a kappa under my first statement....this is what heroes like pa are about (not all carries though - some cores want to focus down enemy cores).

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