Overpowered vs. Strong

Hi all,

I'm seeing quite a discrepancy between what different people consider OP/strong. I'm going to try to clarify without offending anyone, so I won't be quoting examples.

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I'd like to start off with describing what overpowered, or OP is. The root of the word, overpower, means to defeat with superior strength.
In DotA terms, this means that there is an imbalance between the two heroes; one is obviously stronger than the other.

Which brings me to a point: Often what you're comparing the "overpowered in question hero" obscures or greatly affects your results.
For example, if I compare an Abbadon's carry potential to Lich's, I might think that Abba is easily going to overpower Lich in a fight. But does that mean carry Abbadon is overpowered? No!

Similarly, if I compare Lifestealer to Phantom Assassin this patch, I may think that PA is overpowered.

The point I'm trying to make here is that just because something is better than something else doesn't mean it's overpowered.

Think Rock-Paper-Scissors: Rock beats Scissors, Scissors beats Paper, and Paper (somehow) beats Rock.

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There's also a difference between an OP ability and an OP hero. Just because a hero has an OP ability does not make the hero broken. For example, Sacred Arrow is a really good ability. But does that mean Mirana's broken?

No, because her other abilities are mediocre to make up for it.

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However, on the flip side, just because a hero is OP doesn't mean it has high pick rates/high winrates.

Because all heroes can be countered. Say for example, Meepo. By general consensus, this hero is overpowered. However, he does require high levels of skill and can be countered.

But when a hero is strong enough to be picked every match, teams will start forming strategies around the hero and against the hero, thus rendering the "OP" part of heroes a little less "OP"

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All in all, three things:

• Compare "OP in question" heroes to an average of all the heroes
• OP abilities do not equal OP hero
• All heroes can be countered.

TL:DR No heroes are, by definition, overpowered.

~TheSofa

Not every hero can be countered. The whole point of meta heroes is that they're first pick material. Why do you think heroes like Doom, Lesh, Troll etc have had 100% first phase pick/ban rate in competitive?

Yep. Troll, prior to the introduction of Wyvern in captains, had LITERALLY no good counters. And was a very good hero in his own right. So he was overpowered as ****.

Windrunner's counters, being Dazzle and Wyvern, are rife in the meta. And she's STILL picked a lot. Which really says something about the hero's potency.

I'd call SF overpowered despite having counters, because he's weak only at levels 1 and maybe 2.

I think that Sofa might be on to something really interesting, but the thing about having high pick rates/high winrates is being looked upside down: a hero is not OP because he has those (that doesn't even make sense). The hero is considered OP because for several reasons he indeed appears to be stronger than even his counters and so powerfull that all players want to have it on their team if they can. So the high pick rates/high winrates is actually the proof that the hero is being considered OP (not the reason on itself).

About a hero being or not OP, I have to agree that there are some heroes that at times are stronger than the rest, because the meta changed in a way that favoured them for some reason (because Dota is so complex like an ecossistem, even slight changes to things like neutral camps may influence what heroes come to the meta or becomes overpowered, and this has nothing to do with the hero itself being changed).

So if I had to define what it means to be OP, I would have to say a set of characteristics, including the several ones mentioned in the threads about this: being too good a hero because it fits multiple strats, it has no big counters on the meta at the time, it's good at any given point in the game, its spells are strong, the hero itself has good stats, etc. If we want we can even add here the characteristic of not having too high a skill cap level, so that even players that are not that good can make the hero work (which I don't agree it's the case of Windranger, for instance, as I think it's shown by her winrate, but it can be a point made in favor of OPnesss I think).

But how can you acess this rationaly, without having to only rely on the general opinion of people, which is something so vague? That's where the high pick rates/winrates kick in. Dota is meant to sit at the famous 50% winrate, and heroes to have a slight lower pickrate than that. If a hero has both higher, that means he is picked a lot and winning a lot. That's a sign something is wrong about it.

Another interesting point that was raised is if we should look to the general dota community to access if a hero is OP, or to the competitive scene. I think we should actually look to the competitive, even if they're only 1% like Dimoni said, because they are the ones that are more qualified in the game - spend the more hours, think the more, and don't just follow personal preferances but acess what is really more efficient at any given point in the meta. If they start first picking/banning Doom, I think we can all agree that means something. And yet no one is complaining that the hero is OP right? Well my guess is it's because pubs are not good enough to properly use it, so they don't, so general people don't play against the hero and don't complain. Does this means Doom isn't OP? Nop, he still is OP, and nerfs are a-coming. In this case you can say that he has a higher skill level cap than Windranger, so he's much less noticeable on pubs.

Precisely to run from the "it irritates me nerf pliz" syndrom that Tim talked about you can't rely solely on the general opinion the dota scrub players (insert us all common mortals here) have - or we wouldn't have the joke about Riki being OP to everyone under 2K. It's best to see if the best players go for the hero and win with it and why, and that will give us clues about its true potency. Anyways, pubs actually do follow the trends set by competitive, so you will first see something there and then all the general community try to immitate it.

Now if you want to say "this hero is picked too much and I don't like it pliz do something so I see him less" that's a completely different thing, and it's legit - but it doesn't mean the hero is OP, and I see it a lot as an actual argument for OPness.

#Xyruschallengetowalloftext

This exercise is futile.
You attempt to ascertain how Strong a hero is in vacuum, without any heed to drafts and other hygiene factors.

So for the fun of it, you can go and do that ****ty experiment of who wins? Void v/s Juggernaut
or Anti mage v/s Outworld devourer.

But you are going into such a obscure area of mechanics, that it is hardly relevant.
Dota is a team game. Huskar is not OP, his team makes him OP ( credits to hamster for putting it so beautifully)

Similarly, it should be stated here that we are playing a team game and be judged as such.

It is hard to quantify, as people have said, because DOTA is such a complex team based game.

However, the exercise isn't futile, there are a number of factors that influence why a hero might be picked a lot.

One I think you haven't covered much is flexibility - a hero can play in a wide range of roles and situations where the strength of their abilities can still be brought to bear. For example, if a core hero has great flash/recovery farming capabilities - they can become strong even if well countered early on.

It can be if they can easily change tactics or builds to be effective in numerous different ways depending on the opposition. And still be strong.

It can be if they require specific counters, or those counters are themselves weak in other situations or easy to work around.

For example, you could say Ancient Apparition is a good Doom counter because of Ice Blast stopping his healing. This is true, but it relies on being able to consistently land a semi-skillshot in the right place on a 45 second cooldown, once that support hero reaches level 6, and if the hero isn't spell immune when it lands (I think?).

It also means your team has to utilise a support with unreliable stun/nuking power, and ideally needs both a trilane and team mates with stun to setup for him.

Hence, that counter isn't massively effective.

Exactly, Sando. You just explained how positioning and a well timed Black King Bar counters Doom counter.

Dota is a game of counters.

Rock crushes scissors

Scissors cuts paper

Paper makes ear****s

Ear****s block Sonic Wave

Sonic Wave clears Phantom Lancer

Phantom Lancer swarms Shadow Fiend, unless Shadow Fiend can get off a good Requiem

Pipe memes Requiem

Terrorblade gives no ***** about your pipe

He does give a **** about Disruption

But Earth Spirit doesn't, because he's rock

And as said before, rock crushes scissors

Paper ear****s that block Sonic Waves wat o.O

It's a damn good quality paper ok