Hamster's Terrorblade rework (less push, less nerf, more fun ^^)

All you guys should just commit harakiri if you hate a game mechanic so much that you are willing to rework heroes so as to satisfy your insatiable hunger to play a watered down game with good-goody heroes that are playable by everyone and that all game mechanics are understood by everyone.

Seriously, shame!!!!!!


RAT is DEAD already. Do you want to put its lifeless body in a grave put salt on it and set fire to it so that it never comes back?


Terror blade , what you are making will have no comeback potential. All he becomes is a teamfight machine ( THAT TOO AFTER 25 MINUTES INTO THE GAME)and even so, if people build boots of travels on him, it will only be to farm. Dayum, to farm and not to push tower when a lane is pushed?
It is not a commendable prognosis that you are coming at, Oh let the creeps do the pushes and make counter pusher and counter initiators OP.

Next thing we know that carry Axe is gonna be cofirmed with Earthshaker being played as critshaker on the pro scene. oh wait its already happening!

Why change this illusion damaging tower mechanic? what is the change to meta do YOU think it brings??. What will be the impact to illusion heroes.

Oh do we now want faceless void to be the hardest carry in the game with his punk *** chronos to be the spell the game be centered around? ARE YOU WANTING THIS? do you want so much teamfight that it becomes a meaning less game of win fights, take towers and end the game gg wp no re ez katka no skill IQ needed to play the game???

What new flavor does your mechanic change, bring to the game that it becomes viable. You talk aboput weeding out these mechanics like they are the cancer of this game. You know whats the cancer? it is people crying on how they cant play against a certain hero because their hero pool is *limited* so ph! call a nerf ICEFROG!.


Oh wait! YOU DONT WANT ARC WARDEN TO BE INTRODUCED TO DOTA 2. so do i!
BUT WILL I WANT THE MECHANIC TO CHANGE?

OH WAIT NERF PA CRIT
OH WAIT NERF PHANTOM LANCER ILLUSIONS
OH WAIT NERF AXE BERSERKER CALL
OH WAIT WE WANT MORE HATS
OH WAIT JUGGERNAUT MoM PLAYERS ARE GAY!
OH WAIT XXX IS YYY BETTER THAN ZZZ SO NERFZZZZZZZ
OH WAIT! WE FRIKKIN WANT VOID MODEL REWORKED( LIKE HELL ARE DOTA PLAYER IDIOTS?)

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Meh i took it too far.....


TLDR: Tell me what you hate about TB.
Tell me what you hate about illusion pushing towers.
Tell me what do you hate about rats now that axes and troll warlords are the meta and tinker is nerfed.
Tell me what effect you want after changing illusion mechanics


Then i tell you what it actually would BE.

Keep Calm and Rant?

Keep calm and rage haha.
Seriously we just wanted to bring up the Reflection and Sunder, why so much rage?

When Storm Spirit, Slark, Troll Warlord, Axe and a few others get their well-deserved nerf in the next patch, it will come back.
Rat is just bad against the current meta picks, so it's not that good *right now*, but as a strategy it's always viable.



I think we have enough salt already xD



He's one of the top 5 flashfarmers in the game. A well-played TB farms just as fast as an Anti-Mage WITHOUT A FARMING ITEM simply by spamming illusions to clear lanes and jungle.
And he's also in the top 5 hard carries in the game.
Any hard carry who farms extremely fast is a great comeback hero. He can get crushed in lane and comeback from farming jungle. He's pretty much a ticking time bomb for the enemy team because he gets natively ~700-800 GPM without a farming item and nobody can stand up to him late game.



Exactly. Luckily he has the highest DPS output of every dota hero so with some farm he'll crush teamfights.




Rat dota with illusions is overpowered. Icefrog himself acknowledged it with his repeated nerfs to Naga Siren and Terrorblade as well as his complete rework of Phantom Lancer that removes his rat ability completely. And by reducing illusion building damage by 25%.
Ratting with illusions is OP because you can rat without taking any risk. If you rat with a hero, you risk getting killed. If you rat with necrobooks, you risk feeding 400 gold. If you rat with Naga illsuions, there is literally zero risk.



I don't want to remove rat dota. Rat is a very important part of this game and it needs to be left alone. Otherwise indeed teamfight heroes are overpowered.
I just want to stop ILLUSION HEROES from being rat dota heroes, because it's imbalanced.
Rat should be done by dedicated heroes like Nature's Prophet or carries like Morphling or Clinkz. These heroes are very good rats but their ability to split push is balanced by the fact that they can be ganked and killed, unlike illusion heroes who can just sit back and spam illusions with no risk.




There are some truly overpowered heroes in the current patch. Like in every patch. The game balance isn't perfect, Icefraud isn't God.
Truth is, when you see the enemy team pick Troll, or Storm, or Slark, or Meepo...if you don't pick a hard counter to these heroes and the guy playing them is even half-decent...with almost certainty you will get raped.





The fact that he was introduced to dota 2 without any thought about balance. Then he was brought to CM and the pros started playing him and all he ever did was split push with illusions all game long and be an autowin pick. This cancer split push was so overpowered that he was first banned in literally every game.
This was (rightfully) considered OP as **** and he got smashed to pieces by the nerf hammer.
He got nerfed so hard that he's almost at unplayable level now.
But nerfing him didn't change the fact that the hero design is rotten at the core.




To rat, you should commit and take risks, not play the ***** game of sitting back and sending illusions.



Nothing! I love rats. I am a rat myself and proud. Just that when I rat I actually go up there and attack the tower, and I go solo kill defending heroes. I don't sit back in the woods and send illusions like a coward : this is terrible game design IMO.



I want Terrorblade (and other illusion heroes) to be all about two things : flashfarming creeps, and going for solo kills.
I just think that by their design, illusion heroes shouldn't be made for ratting. Ratting should be left to high mobility carries like Morphling or Weaver.

Phantom Lancer : he already got this treatment with his rework, now he can't rat anymore and his farming ability even got nerfed...so now he's supposed to be played as a snowballer.
Chaos Knight : he needs to be played as a snowballer as well. Sure he can rat with his 140 second cooldown ultimate especially if he's paired with a wisp, but he probably should keep it for teamfights otherwise he gets punished for it. He's a "win teamfight and push base" hero, this is what his high duration ult is all about.
Naga Siren : even Naga pickers agree that she's a cancer hero. Will Icefrog keep nerfing her in every patch or will he rework her PL style? That's an open question. Honestly I miss the times where maxing net and riptide and going drum/diffusal/manta was legit as a core build...her nerfs especially to illusion damage and to diffusal 2 essentially make radiance rat the only viable way to play her and it's pretty sad.

My change to TB is actually a buff to the hero, and a pretty big one at that, because by making Reflection and Sunder good skills he's a much more well-rounded carry with a lot of adaptability and different playstyles.

Actually, I agree with KCAF. (He and I are both avid TB players, so our opinion has to count for something, eh?)

Split-push is an essential part of Terrorblade and removing that immediately nerfs him into oblivion, no matter what else you do to him. Taking quick T1s and T2s with Meta and BoTs of Travel is his catchup mechanism and without that he's useless from behind. Rat dota with illusions *was* overpowered. The reduced damage they now deal to towers makes them fine. However, the 0-risk to the Hero still is a problem... there is no simple way to fix this TBH but removing the push of illusion heroes DEFINITELY isn't it. Yes, he farms really ****ing fast, but he needs space to do so or he's stuck at 400GPM and sub-1k HP. Generally you create space by taking towers. Your rework, while certainly useful in professional play, makes Terrorblade an awful pub hero because he'd be even more team-reliant than he already is. The strength of illusion carries (on a slightly related note, Morphling and Tiny are both illusion carries, just in different ways) is that they can create some of their own space.

And, to properly farm the jungle, TB does need his Yasha. Which if you are crushed in lane, you don't get until 15 minutes by which point you are waaaaaay behind.

If you want to make him more teamfight-focused, you don't have to change much. Just return Reflection to its earlier form (which was AoE), reduced illusion damage taken, and increase Strength gain. I like what you did with his Aghs upgrade, I have to say - it synergises with his skillset, and deals with any and all kiting issues he might have. Terrorblade has undergone a LOT of reworks since Dota 1, and he had various combat focused abilities which bear looking at; Soul Steal, Zeal, and the hybrid Metamorphosis/Conjure Image of ye olde days.

I've been suggesting some kind of a rework for a while, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it's very relevant. We both have the same idea, but have gone about it in VERY different ways.

-Strength gain increased to 1.7.
-Base HP regen reduced to 0.5.
-Cast point improved to 0.35.
-Conjure Image damage taken reduced to 350%.
-Conjure Image damage dealth reduced to 25%/35%/45%/55% (you'll see why later)
-Sunder removed.
-Metamorphosis is now Terrorblade's ultimate.
Terrorblade transforms into a powerful Demon with a ranged attack and bonus base damage.
Transformation time: 0.35
Bonus Damage: 50/70/90
Range: 550
Base Attack Time: 1.6
Duration: 45/50/55
While in Metamorphosis form, Terrorblade gains the Demonic Leap ability.
Terrorblade pounces on his target, leaping towards them quickly.
Range: 800
Leap Distance: 500/600/700
Cooldown: 15/11/7
The removal of the speed loss and the addition of Demonic Leap make him a much better fighter, able to move around combat and deal his damage. Since Demonic Leap can't be used as an escape, it won't be used as a Lycan ult. I think pretty much everyone agrees that Metamorphosis is Terrorblade's real ult, and, well, it's a proper ult now.

-New passive: Zeal
The Marauder lets the darkness take him, gaining increased attack speed and Health regeneration. Illusions get these benefits.
Bonus Attack Speed: 20/30/40/50
Bonus HP Regeneration: 2/3/4/5
This fills the slot left by the removed Sunder. It grants TB yet another damage steroid and a bit more sustain for farming. However, it works equally as well on towers... which kind of puts unwanted focus on his split-push. If this causes problems, it can always be replaced with Soul Steal, which drains life from the target to Terrorblade, allowing him to chase them down and sustain himself in combat.

-Reflection reverted to its original incarnation.
Terrorblade brings forth a dark reflection of all enemy units in a small area. Affected units are slowed and attacked by their reflections for 5 seconds
Range: 600
Radius: 350
Slow (A&MS): 20%/25%/30%/35%
Illusion Damage: 35%/45%/55%/65%
This is a very teamfight orientated ability. While I like your Reflection as well, it's still limited by single-target. Plus, this version is flashy as hell which makes for more MLG plays. I have montages to think of.

TL;DR: Remove Terrorblade's splitpush, you remove the Hero's entire identity. There are ways to make him a fighter without crushing his tower-eating.

Calls buffing terrorblade when he *just swapped sunder and metamorphosis abilities*

Underneath all that smoke and mirrors= No rat tb becuase illusions get farted to death when they touch towers.
You kept him squishy you take his reliable income and you ask him to fight in game before 20 minute marks? HORRIBLE!

Ember Spirit
Clinkz
Storm spirit
Silencer
Support Naga- Anti radiance naga(which i incidentally love going all agi on)
Waveclearer SF
Slark
Axe
The ***in Kunkka

All these hunt rats, by going onto enemy jungle and hunting the piglets out.



If you dont believe that rat is dead, you should ask natures prophet who is eating his brand of corn instead of going- Holla holl getta dolla brand of american sweet corn.

Hey furion!!! rat is alive isnt it?
Furion: I am leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaving.
Admiral Bulldog: You dont exist for me. I consider you dead.
Tell that to lone druid.


Are you telling me axe is OP?
With only 3% buff to counter helix,people had issues with zerks call( which was the same since many patches ago)????

Oh mophling takes risk to rat? I call that biggest BS of 2015!. Got stunned morph str and replicate as you get it.
Got silenced manta and replicate out.

You call PL snowballer? He jungles so welll post level 6 its laughable!! Gimme 20 mins bro i come out of the jungle guns blazing with a diffusal and a heart of tarrasque

I play Naga and while i flame anyone but me who has the gall to use the oops button, i believe with those crop of clinkz and bloody murderer slarks i have no issues with her.
SHE IS NOT A CANCER
Illusions do pitiable 30% damage. Her riptide AoE became so low. The best thing she has for her is her net!
I play all agi build on naga and i do enjoy it!
http://en.dotabuff.com/matches/1193918391
Rage abandons when i kite him to death using net. Dispel the damn open wounds using mirror image.


Just see CK's skill build. It screams bloody gang bang on one enemy.
Now see terrorbalde's skills. I wont say sunder is a good ulti but it is Passable.


You call adding Aghs Armlet, Dagon build to mainstream meta an adaptability then i must salute you by adding 1000 reps to you.
Please do that to someone else.
May be pugna will appreciate it.

Okay, what will you say if come next patch, instead of nerfing axe troll etc. what if icefraud buffs illusions?
What if he buffs LD,PL,TB,Naga in some way that makes them more impactful?
My question willbe that do you honestly believe that people wont cry?


RAT IS HATED!
For a good reason but now that game meta has its feet in ricing, going offensive snowballs if possible and farming late game items, do you think people will still feel rat is op?
Now that they have hero capabilities to overthrow it?
That they can hunt down actual heroes? If they apply mind?


I am calling it!
Next patch i wana see buffs to illusions in some way. And it will happen. Although i can see that the fact tat they do 25% less damage to towers is well deserved, they will get good fighting prowess. But to say that illusions cannot be utilized to push is FOUL , to its core.


I can agree with one thing: that PL nerf was deserved ?BECAUSE he could have 12 illusions on one tower doing 340% damage. That was OP.
TB does 220%.
Naga does 220%
CK does 500%.

Thats where m goin. All non ultimate illusions that did whopping tower damage was nerfed.
That is ok. They dont apply UAM on towers, Deso I'm looking at you. They dont get bous damage from items..


So my agreement is that if any hero does non ultimate illusion damage to towers( counting original hero himslef, not counting manta since its available to all) on more than 300% it should be nerfed to this value.



Think of this:
The very fact of adding illusions is to use them. Necro books are used for mass pushes and mana burn.
Sure if you want a gold value on illusions, add 20-30 gold to them, i am fine.


Void and medusa have their game breaking ultimates. Big *** disables.
I dont see the likes of naga,PL, TB,CK having disables that go thru BKB. Except naga maybe.
She isnt cancer i like her .COLOR ME PREJUDICED I DONT CARE!! >.< I like Her just as my Windy.


And please dont dissect my post by making small quotes its like someone wants to refute me by point wise analysis. They are interconnected. Like a puzzle component doesnt reveal the whole picture ,they wont.Subtext- pretext matter.

Its like you want to deny enemy victory by killing your own throne.

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I like that you are having a very nice and engaging discussion with me. All my dota life , i wanted this.
Thank you for sparing your time.
That goes out to all my friends and crushes out here.

You brought up Conjure Image and tower crashing mechanics.
If you wanted to play with these two okay. i wont rage...........but i will rat.



My apologies i dont know how to add quotes after i have posted. Hence the double post. Because if i want to quote someone i just use Quote button.It opens up a new comment box.

I brought up Conjure Image and tower crashing mechanics? What do you mean?
Rat is love, rat is life, everyone love rat, the only thing that matters is: Is the rat-ing IMBA or balanced?

Based on your point:
PL does 340%
TB does 220%.
Naga does 220%
CK does 500%.
More than 300% should be nerf for a non-ult skill.

First, we don't look at damage %, we look at base damage.
Let's say everyone are now level 16 without any item and only level 1 stat point.
Phantom Lancer has 103 base damage, which is 350.2 damage in total.
Terrorblade has 181 base damage, which is 398.2 damage in total.
Naga Siren has 100 base damage, which is 220 damage in total.
Chaos Knight has 109 base damage, which is 545 damage in total.

You said Phantom Lancer's nerf was well deserved? Well PL's illusion only lasts for 8 seconds and TB's can lasts until 2 tower is downed. Now you give everyone a Manta Style:
Phantom Lancer does 406%
Terrorblade does 276%.
Naga Siren does 286%
Chaos Knight does 566%.

Now the damage,
Phantom Lancer has 129 base damage, which is 523.74 damage in total.
Terrorblade has 207 base damage, which is 571.32 damage in total.
Naga Siren has 126 base damage, which is 360.36 damage in total.
Chaos Knight has 119 base damage, which is 673.54 damage in total.

Don't forget Chaos Knight won't always get 4 illusions with his ult, so it should be 3.5 illusion in average.

So Chaos Knight now does 119 base damage x (566-50)% = 614.04 damage in total.

Result:
1st place - Chaos Knight with 614.04 damage ( with cooldown of 140 seconds, plus it is an ult )
2nd place - Terrorblade with 571.32 damage ( with cooldown of 140 seconds too, but it isn't an ult )
3rd place - Phantom Lancer with 523.74 damage ( active all time, but illusion only lasts for 8 seconds, and cannot spawn at will)
Last place - Naga Siren with 360.36 damage, basically Clinkz does better job than her in focus down a tower.

Lastly, BAT,
Phantom Lancer's BAT = 1.7, At level 16, attack per sec would be 1.03
Terrorblade's BAT = 1.6, At level 16, attack per sec would be 1.14
Naga Siren's BAT = 1.7, At level 16, attack per sec would be 0.96
Chaos Knight's BAT = 1.7, At level 16, attack per sec would be 0.86

Regardless of extra attack speed from Manta Style,
Chaos Knight's damage would be 614.04 x 0.86 = 528.0744
Terrorblade's damage would be 571.32 x 1.14 = 651.3048
Phantom Lancer's damage would be 523.74 x 1.03 = 539.4522
Naga Siren's damage would be 360.36 x 0.96 = 345.9456

Final result, average damage output would be:
1st place = Terrorblade with 651.3048
2nd place = Phantom Lancer with 539.4522
3rd place = Chaos Knight with 528.0744
Last place = Naga Siren with 345.9456

Math is love, math is life, math is not mental abuse to human but it's the soul of humanity <3

PL did 340% damage from a non ultimate skill called Juxtapose. It was his E

I did not go to maths because people go into damage values to say oh look TB does most of all damage, lets nerf him. But wait does he not have A frikkin bad STR gain as compared to others? is he not ultra squishy (1.4STR gain)? You didnt even address that.


Well you did it to show your geek. But please decide whether rat or math is your love.XD
What i presented were max %age values because you have to time your conjure image at the 16Th second to have two at your tower push and a helluva luck to have all illusions with you as PL while pushing a tower.

In your prognosis you do put forth some exciting points that clinkz does more damage to a tower. So it can be agreed to an extent that illusions are not OP, we just need to agree on the risk part. That illusions are risk free.

When i was a kid i always got 100 percentile in math and quant tests. I went into some line that was not related to maths still i learned engy level maths.

It is love for me as well. Glad i found some other person that is as passionate about maths as i am.
Well, may be.

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Unscathed has made so many names for me
Thanks
Keep calm and rant
Keep calm and Kawaii
Keep Calm and rage( Mr. Locket)


I think i will make'em my dta IDs

You need to update yourself dude, it was combined from Q, W and R (1+1+10 = 12)



Yes he is squishy, but don't forget that he can have a second life by Sunder-ing an enemy or his illusion, also among those 4 heroes he is the only ranged hero, also, high base HP regen. After all, it is not a nerf, it is a suggestion of whole new playstyle man.


Both are my love, and my life, why can't we have both? It's like you love your wife and also your mom.



Is it too hard to use an ability once it is off cooldown? That statement don't make sense at all. Terrorblade can have 2 illusions most of the time, well balanced. Phantom Lancer need "helluva" luck to have 12 illusions, nerf is deserved. Logic?


If Clinkz versus Terrorblade, Terrorblade will win. Pushing with illusions are OP because you can farm anyway on the map while having your illusions pushing all 3 towers at once, enemy will have to keep splitting to defend each lane and get no reward in return. While other non-illusion based pusher like Nature's Prophet, Morphling, Clinkz will have to risk their life for being ganked and killed, one silence and you are dead.

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You still can push as Terrorblade fairly well, push with Manta Style!
After the new changes, his damage would be 156% x 227 base damage = 354.12 in average, which is similar as Naga Siren, while at the same time you can have your Conjure Images pushing other lane by killing creeps, or farm in jungle.

You can come back by farming 3 camps simultaneously, pushing tower is not the only way.