6.88b

Typical case of the game being brainlessly balanced around competitive pick rates. There's no Pudge in competitive therefore the hero needs to be buffed until he's so broken that there's a Pudge in every pro game. And only then can he be nerfed.

This way of balancing is what made every single OSFrog hero that ever existed. Remember 6.80 Void? Hey there's no Void in competitive so let's just casually...reduce his ult cooldown by 20 seconds, what can possibly go wrong? Remember 6.83 Troll? Hey there's no carry Troll in competitive so this means Troll is a terrible carry, let's just casually give him a free fervor stack. Timbersaw in this patch? Hey there's no Timber in competitive right now so this clearly proves that he's a bad hero, even though there's no serious argument to support that besides a pick rate.

Seriously...sometimes I wonder if OSFrog is even human. Maybe the game is balanced by a bot.

Wow that purple is obnoxious :)

A bit like this patch really...although obnoxious is waaay overstated. It's just "meh". The offlane "buff" is ok...20% xp if you can't contest but can soak, it's still painful.

Don't really understand where many of the buffs or nerfs are going here, they're mostly not really addressing significant issues.

I played against a Timbersaw yesterday that was really strong, the strength loss is pretty insignificant change when you consider his usual builds. The OP heroes are still OP, most weren't even touched.

To be fair, that was a bug fix and Troll kind of WAS a bad carry because he couldn't target switch at all. Also, 6.83 was a glorious time. Long games means more Dota.

You should also point out 6.87 Terrorblade... he was super strong since 6.85 or 6.86 at the latest and still kept being buffed. He just didn't fit the meta, whereas now he does and needs some slaps on the wrist to say 'bad boy, don't dominate the qualifiers that hard again.'

Or we could accept that we dont actually know **** about balancing and would do a garbage job, especially since most just balance around THEIR games and what THEY think is annoying. So can people stop be arrogant idiots and see that the game is actually very well balanced now with much different picks.
And whoever criticises the way the game is balanced with not doing hard changes around TI, too bad, atleast they are consistent with doing that, and actually seeing the impact of small changes+figuring out new succesfull heroes like TB and timber.
Way better then saying X HERO IS OP NERF I DONT CARE ABOUT PRO GAMES IM ANNOYED, and meanwhile X HERO DESTROYED PRO GAMES GO NERF ICEFROG NOOB SHOULD HAVE SEEN IT COMING.

This is a bit unnecessary Timm...

Balancing this game is incredibly difficult for many reasons (complexity, organic growth over years, massive range of player skills etc) and Icefrog and the Valve team are obviously doing their best. Not everyone is going to be happy, and not every patch is going to be a good one.

The whole point of discussion boards like this is that we can all express our opinions freely and openly. We can disagree (hopefully politely), banter and maybe learn something.

While I think you're right to raise "the other side" of the argument, the way you've done it comes across a bit aggressive and seems to have temporarily killed the discussion.

I think the patches really portray what Icefrog and the people behind the balancing are going for with DotA...

I really don't think that making this game enjoyable for us players is their number 1 goal. Because what earns them money - pubs, or competitive play?

Balancing the game that so that it tailors to competitive play only makes sense - it benefits the team itself more, and makes the game more enjoyable to watch.

Also, pudge keeps getting buffed because pudge is one of those heroes that gets a big reaction from the crowd.

Think about it this way - if lina ults someone and they die, will the crowd cheer? Not really.

But if pudge hooks someone - will the crowd cheers? Yes, they will.

All sports (and yes, I count doto as sport comparable to chess) are tailored for competitive play.

Totally agree with your point Sofa - having "entertaining" skills for Pro-level stuff is better for watchers than boring but maybe well balanced stuff. Who wants to watch Dendi Lina when you could have Dendi Pudge? The thing is that it rattles down the skill levels in a multitude of different ways.

Heroes who rely on close co-operation are more powerful in pro-games, but much less so in pubs. Even if the meta reached a point of being extremely closely balanced (unlikely in a game like Dota) people would eventually want change for the sake of change because we want the meta to shift. New stuff is interesting.

Even a game like football (soccer) has been minimally rule adjusted for years, yet a meta exists that shifts over time.

MOBA style gaming is deliberately "imbalanced" - heroes are super strong in some situations and suck in others. I played a game against Ember Spirit as Skywrath Mage yesterday and kicked his ***. In the same way, the game before an Invoker on my team got massively out of hand early on and won the game despite the sidelanes suffering.

However, MOBA style power is entertaining. Chess style "almost perfect" balance can be boring. We play games for fun. Balance is just part of the equation.

In the same way a guy on another thread is running simulation style software to try and find good builds - but stripping down MOBA style play to just stats is not reflective of overall outcomes. It makes life interesting...and complicated.