The 6.83 discussion thread

So true: people stopped playing him as a mid-game pushing/teamfighting Hero and started seeing his hard carry potential. And they also realized that a Mask of Madness gives more single target damage than Aghanim's Scepter when using the ultimate, a thing I had never thought of.

And talking about other Heroes, I've had really good results playing mid Venomancer with Midas into Agh's, it's really broken.

Pros do that. Competitively i havent seen but many ranked games.
Midas into aghs is legit and standard for a veno.

As for yurnero, m still not convinced on MoM pick.
Midas treads blink maelstrom seems so good.

I've been theorycrafting a bit, and I was wondering how well Venomancer offlane would do.. Level 1 Plague Ward might allow for some XP without getting into harm's way.

A single point in Venomous Gale can help if they get aggressive.

Once you get 6, a Poison Nova in teamfights wrecks face.

Thoughts?

Too squishy, a single stun and you are dead, and no slow will help in that way. Against some poor lineups, like 2 melees with close-ranged stuns he will work, but otherwise he is just a tasty frag for enemy team.

Yeah, it's a pretty standard build on Venomancer competitively. Though I think they normally go Blink Dagger into Scepter. Since, jumping in with Poison Nova is silly.



It's been done competitively before. It's really dependant on the opposing lane, like a solo lane you are just fine, a tri-lane... you'll struggle.



Mask of Madness is a better farm accelerator than a Hand of Midas. Given that you aren't that level dependant (Every single one of your skills has great value with only one point in, so it's not like you need to get them all maxxed asap). Mask of Madness is a better gold accelerator I'd argue, whilst the movement and attack speed make you much more threatening early on. Since, you can't escape the Juggernaught.

I've seen a few offlane Venomancers in competitive and almost none of them worked. The problem with Veno is that, despite being fairly tanky for an AGI Hero, he's really slow. This doesn't mean he can't play in the offlane, you just have to avoid picking him against certain lanes: for example, melee carries will usually give him some space, and you can easily avoid them with a Venomous Gale.

Another problem is that he has no ways of keeping up with the game if he gets shut down: he can't semi-jungle like Doom, Axe or Centaur Warrunner pre-5 and is usually too slow and fragile to join ganks like Puck or Bristleback.

Also, offlane Venos usually avoid getting a big item first and go for Tranquil Boots and Eul's Scepter of Divinity, sometimes picking up Force Staff, Blink, Pipe or I guess Mek. You kind of become a suicide initiator and try to play with the enemies for as much as possible like Puck.


By the way, how does jungle Juggernaut work? I heard you max heal and crits without a single point in Blade Fury, but I've never tried it.

He is being played as hard carry,yes??
So he can afford to farm afk for 25 minutes correct?
if you want him to come online fast, who are you making space for?
Are you wanting to deathball in ricing meta?

not arguing folks,but juggernaut is not ahard carry. If you want him to be a HC,go midas and get reliable attack speed through tier3 items.
If you want him to make use of his abilities,because they are so good(omnislash 100%kill), get yer current build,but dont as hell call him a hard carry. He becomes a snowballer,like slark.
The object becomes tower seiging and making space *to let someone farm* - Ta Da.

Why does him coming online early mean he has to make space for someone else? A 1 position Juggernaught gets fast Phase Boots, MoM and then you have massive fighting potential, which you can leverage into towers, and thus map control. Said map control levels into more farm for your team, and less for them. It does not have to mean into making space for a Harder Carry (Which is something I see you equate being a 1 position is to often).

This might be a ricing meta, but there are less tradiontal hard carry picks than there were in 6.82 from what I've observed. At least in competitive. I'm seeing more Ember Spirit, Slark and of course Juggernaut. Heroes which has early game relvence, but still scale extremely well into the late game.

And my point still stands - Hand of Midas is a worse farm accelerator on Juggernaut than Mask of Madness. Even if you sell it in the late game, for a trandiontal attack speed item you'll hit 6 slots faster with the MoM than a Hand of Midas, because you are more relevent in fights, and you farm creeps faster. So you effectively get more gold from the map. Which makes a Midas pick up seem pointless to me.

Sanvitch, I just want to take this time to let you know that your banner graphic is real F***'in awesome.

exactly what i am saying is in agreement with you.
He has humongous potential at level6 with phase and mask as you say he needs no more farm to come online and thus should be played as space creator for a harder carry to farm.
Notwithstanding that he scales better late game, some other heroes scale better. The fact that he keeps going till late game is an added bonus. We are seeing a juggernaut core position more than a carry juggernaut. Its more like how jakiro was being played, gank-kill-take towers.

It is true that pros are picking less of conventional carries but you have also seen spectre and medusa picks. You have seen terrorblade.
Thats what i am saying. Unconventional drafts are effective and while as such cannot be underestimated, i was talking of a conventional draft where jugger can be an impactful player that can make an impression as early as level6 and converts advantages into tower/kills/not needing a hard carry at all to finish a game.

He allows farm dependant allies to have their own time while he dominates.I am not against him ,being played as position 1 but he is still not that tier level where you anoint someone as 'hard carry'.

what i said for midas was for a number 1 position juggernaut that doesnt have to come for hero kills(apparently, he can kill with his omnislash, so why go traditional farming?, hence my suggestion on midas is a waste i admit). But i still think he is not viable position 1. He can come to a close 2 at the most. He doesnt need to accelerate farm, he needs to be the juggernaut(literally)!!!!
I generally go treads blink maelstorm ;put stat-points and skip bladefury even before this meta shift because i was not good at landing bladefuries(i tended to get juked easily, also got killed under tower because i overextend zealously to deal full damage)