Thoughts about Yasha on agility heroes

Since I started playing dota, I've always had a notion in my head that Yasha is a staple item for pretty much any agility semi carry or carry. It gives agility, attack speed and movement speed - all of which are great for an agility hero. However, lately, I've been thinking about the usefulness of a Yasha unless I upgrade it to a Manta Style.

The reason for this is that, unless upgraded to a Manta Style, Yasha is not an end game item, and would soon be replaced. Sange and Yasha could be an option for the mid game, but even that falls off late game except on some heroes.

As for agility heroes that do NOT usually build a Manta Style, I could think of a few:

Sniper --> Generally squishy and the illusions don't provide any real benefit
Clinkz --> Again, squishy and no real use for a manta?
Faceless Void --> I don't see a reason to build into a manta on a void
Riki --> Manta does so little on the hero in my opinion. I'd rather rush a diffusal rather than build a yasha
Viper --> I'm not a big fan of manta viper, when building a Heart of Tarrasque after Mek and Aghs gives him so much tanking power in teamfights.
(I'm leaving out obvious non-yasha builders like Ember, Bounty Hunter, etc)

I could be wrong, but is there a reason to build a Yasha on any of these heroes? I feel they could be more useful mid game not building a Yasha. For each of these heroes, my usual item build is:

Sniper : Phase Boots/ Power Treads --> Maelstrom --> Crystalys --> Daedalus --> Mjollnir --> Butterfly

Clinkz : Power Treads --> Orchid Malevolence --> Black King Bar --> Daedalus --> Monkey King Bar

Faceless Void : Power Treads --> Mask of Madness --> Black King Bar --> Daedalus --> Butterfly --> Monkey King Bar

Riki : Power Treads --> Diffusal Blade --> Black King Bar --> Skull Basher --> Butterfly --> Abyssal Blade

Viper : Power Treads --> Mekansm --> Aghanim's Scepter --> Heart of Tarrasque --> Black King Bar (if needed) --> Monkey King Bar or Butterfly (if ultra late game)



What do you guys think about this? Is not building a Yasha on these heroes a better option or would Yasha still help these heroes in the mid game?

For both clinkz and riki, manta removes dust.

Also melee illusions get diffusal's passive, so riki illusions all burn mana.

For void it removes silences, but you might want a BKB instead.

Basically a manta purges almost all debuffs.

I am not so cool in theory, but i would like to offer see next build of viper from real pro game - it was TI 2014 qualifiers and manta was just in place - it allowed to avoid any death in game:

http://www.buildota2.com/build_view?buildId=4712843454709760

This is pretty much the main reasoning for buying Manta Style on any Hero (Illusion Heroes aside). Sometimes a Manta Style AND a Black King Bar can be needed, e.g. on a Gyrocopter against a Silencer who waits till BKB is up to pop Global Silence. Gyro gets hit pretty hard by Silence if you haven't dropped Call Down and Flak Cannon.

Same with Faceless Void, it's no good getting a Chronoshpere off, if a Treant Protector can Blink in and Root everyone, etc.

I would say that the only agility heroes that yasha/manta is complete *** on are: clinkz, ember, druid, nyx, razor, troll, ursa and weaver.
The other heroes can make some use of manta with the illusions or purge.

If i dont get a BKB on riki becouse pubs, or becouse it isnt usefull i will get manta on him. It is also situationally good on viper against roots or ensnares.

Sange and yasha is such a weird and low impact item there is not a single agility hero i will got it on.

I usually use the diffusal blade to purge myself when dusted. If there are two dust carriers, then what you say makes sense, but that has never happened in my experience..

For void, like you said, a BKB takes care of everything a manta does?

Again, if I'm playing Riki, I usually depend on the diffusal/BKB to purge/getaway. I can see the manta being useful to disjoint stuns, or if the enemy team has a silencer, but otherwise, I'm not sure I'd pick it up on heroes other than say Luna/PL/Drow/Mirana/Morphling/Medusa/TA/etc.



If the enemy team has a silencer, I agree the need for more defensive items, and agree with the manta. However, for your void scenario, I can just BKB out of overgrowth, and I'll be building a BKB anyway.



This is mostly my thoughts as well.. If the enemy team is heavy on disables, I might grab a manta.. If not, I think I'd pass on it..

Razor is pretty much the only hero I might consider an SnY on..

You'd pick up Manta for it's split push capabilities and to briefly "confuse" your enemies, not just the disjoint or remove of some debuffs. You don't want to waste a charge of BKB just to remove silence, you save it for big moments in teamfights; why? The duration of BKB gets shorter and shorter so you want to maintain a long BKB as best as possible.

Same with Diffusal, save it as a last resort.

That's why heroes like Luna, PL and Morphling get it, to make their ability to split-push or push stronger. Manta also to make it harder in teamfights for the enemy to focus you down before or after BKB is used, if ever.

The items you mention are all situational so buy according to what's most threatening so far.

edit: To further iterate my points, there are reasons why you sometimes see Chaos Knight build Manta, to push better especially if the other team is lacking AoE.

in publics i love yasha becaus it gives me al what i need early game. Movement(!!) attackspeed and agility.

Movement speed early game is that one more last hit on a hero before diving a tower. The 36 HP run-to-the-fontain.

I don't really have anything to add to what has been said except a couple of things;
For manta:
- Your void illusions can move around and attack people in your chrono (pretty sure)
- Sniper illusions if you built Desolator also can reduce the armour of enemy heroes/towers as well. good for split pushing.
- Manta has uses with heroes that have passives eg Luna with Moon Glaive, Medusa with Split Shot because the illusions carry these as well and thus they can be really problematic in team fights because say if you had a rapier on medusa your illusions would deal a fair amount of damage which can be really annoying for opponents.

for SnY:
- I always build on Razor as the strength bonus is nice but the movement speed bonus is 6% better than Manta's bonus and for some reason I like building Razor for maximum movement speed. :3
- The only other times I would build SnY is when you need more strength/movement speed in the game which is very rare for Agi heroes due to their natural armour gain. Though sometimes I build it on TB due to his low strength gain.

Zerak Kyria, the only UAM that goes to illusions is mana burn ( Diffusal Blade and Mana Break) - and it only works in melee illusions. Sniper's illusion will not have Desolator nor any other orb effect.

Timmi has said everything I think about the heroes that can't make a good use of Manta.