6.85 and Creep Stacking

Forum » General Discussion » 6.85 and Creep Stacking 37 posts - page 4 of 4

If that's the case, min 1 and 3 will be much better, imo.

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But Sando, if that's the problem that you have, don't you think that we should increase the potential gold gotten from pick-offs/ganks instead? I mean, why would you need to nerf the stacking, and therefore making some heroes obsolete, if you can increase the diversity of game plans by increasing kill gold potential? I mean, this way will make teams adopt a more aggressive plan that is much more rewarding (albeit less safe) than finishing the jungle. I think that the problem currently (like some people state previously) is that the creep stacking provides (almost) as much as kill gold, but with much less risk. So if we increase the kill gold by a lot, it would be a viable high-risk-high-gain strategy, right? I think it is possible to work on this idea instead of saying that the creep stacking is a problematic mechanic.

If not, I like the idea of stacks limiter, it would certainly be interesting to see supports blocking their own camps.

The problem with increasing gank gold is that it both encourages and discourages this behaviour - ganks can go wrong, and you can throw harder with increased reward for whichever team is successful. Aggressive behaviour is fundamentally more risky. The other issue is a successful snowball can ruin a match by making a hero too strong too fast, possibly on the back of a kill or two. You could end up with deathball all over again, albeit via a different path. Hence my preference for just making jungle stacking less rewarding.

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The games were reasonably entertaining, but I think this had more to do with the strength of the comeback mechanics keeping it tense, and the accelerated ricing meant they didn't generally overstay their welcome.

However, in terms of Kills Per Minute, the International 2015 main event was extremely low, historically. People played very low risk DOTA (obviously, with so much money at stake) and stuck very much to the "secret" style, with some minor variations (such as CDEC's added early core gank).

I liked that teams played well around the gank/teamfight/split styles later, but nobody really looked to do anything different from ricing the **** out of their own jungle at level 7 with their cores. Then maybe getting a quick kill. Then ricing like crazy for a while longer. Even the supports had high levels of passive farm (look how many kills happened on solo supports pushing lanes out). There was no early pushing at all that I can think of.

I'm not saying we should go back to deathball, but other styles need to be made more viable.

I don't see that limiting the availability of jungle stacks/gold is really going to destroy the game in the way that is sometimes being suggested. If anything, doing nothing simply means the situation will continue. This genie will not go back in the bottle easily.

Again, for the record, I'm not opposed to stacking in any deep seated pathological way. I enjoy it as part of the game...but it's become a major strategic blocker. Something has to change.

The more I've read through everyones suggestions and thought about it, the more I'm thinking a "stack limitor" might be the way forward. Simply put, each side of the map can have X total number of stacks present at any time. Any further attempts to stack are unsuccessful until previous ones have been cleared.

So for example, you'd have 1 stack spawn at every camp on 00:30. Your team can now do a total of say 3 extra stacks - say 3 x double stack, 1 x quad stack...whatever. If you decide to double stack your pull camp to use that - fine, but you'd better clear it out when you want to build more valuable ones elsewhere. Do you prioritise your ancients or hard camps next? When will your cores be ready to farm them?

I think this frees your supports to be more active, and you can still build a nest egg for your solo mid, offlaner or even your carry if you want. People can get a burst of gold, but then will need to go do something else afterwards - farm a lane, or go gank. Maybe we'd see teams blocking their own small camps to allow more in the bigger ones?

Another option I quite like would be to simply change some hard camps to easy camps. This might make more heroes viable junglers, while also reducing the total amount of gold/xp that's available in the jungle.

I think some map changes to make the jungle more accessible would also help, as would cheaper/easier access to sentry wards. As in my 6.85, I'd like to see their cost reduced, and available in singles.

As for programming this - it's trivial.

did it really have the lowest KPM? i cant really find it but from comparing players avarage kills/min from all TI's by eye on datdota it seems the kills were higher. do you have a source that shows it was lower?
granted the farm was also higher, but thats obvious since everyone whos been watching pro dota for 2 years or more sees that the level of dota is WAAAAAAAAAY higher. for example navi didnt really get worse, they just never got any better and were left behind by other teams.

i understand better why you want to change it now, but i thought your initial suggestion was just really stupid. no offense =D i hate the kind of balance that straight out removes options out of the game, and you made it sound like it was about the heroes that were OP. not sure how much of a factor this is in your dissatisfaction about the game.

but i still dont like limiting stacks, on one hand because it wont really do much to change what you want changed, you dont see much more then 1 triplestack in the jungle. and it limits the times where a team wants to go ABSOLUTELY CRAZY with stacks, which is also a strat that can be situationally viable. besides screwing up certain heroes (bat, SK) that dont deserve it, like said before.

besides looking at suggestions im still not convinced about the absolute necessity of it. for example game 3 of the grand final was very entertaining, with gold swings and the game never being out of a teams reach, and despite that it didnt have that much kills, because EG and CDEC were very good at disengaging.

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By nerfing stacks, heroes like , , and would be cast somehow further out of the meta than they already are. Pro games are already very midgame-oriented, and the idea is that you pick up farm in enemy territory across the map as you position yourself aggressively so you can get pickoffs and take objectives. The pro scene isn't, from what I've seen, very boring.

I say you nerf abilities (on the heroes that you want to nerf stacks on) that let you take those stacks, most notably . Make it deal half damage to creeps, or something, like . Then, make it prioritse heroes. Then, nerf his spells, because gyro is OP as ****, and needs the nerf. Stacks were already nerfed last patch, remember?

Stacks are, as I see it a way to make comebacks possible. You basically always have access to the hard camp close to mid, and it can be very hard to take a fight when you're behind, usually especially if you're a hero that can take those stacks, like the . It makes it possible to come back from a bad early game. The problem comes when certain heroes use this to get really far ahead, which is hard to nerf, because other heroes actually NEED to take stacks.

Actually, if you just buff and nerf a few heroes (Quite a few heroes), Dota could be very balanced.

I actually recommend increasing the duration of so you can block camps with it. Best way to keep your opponents from gaining an advantage by stacking? Block their camps.