Where is Skywrath? [Core]

I am genuinely confused bu the lack of core Skywrath Mage in general.

Now I dont watch much competitive games, but I do know that core Skywrath Mage was barely/never picked for mid. Why is this? Especially in this meta with a bunch of Leshrac and Queen of Pain. Powerful silence with a damage amplification, magical burst against these squishy casters, why aren't people picking Skywrath Mage? Last patch we see a bunch of Lina, which (correct me if im wrong) was picked because of the Aghanim's Scepter upgrade against BKB carriers. Now with the game consisting magical damage carries, where is core Skywrath Mage?

And not just this patch, where was he before?

Skywrath Mage has always been a great pub mid at every level, but sky mid has never been done in competitive AFAIK. In competitive he has always been played as a support when his team had skills to set up Mystic Flare, like typically Faceless Void or Legion Commander back when these heroes were picked. Since these heroes are not picked anymore there is logically no more support Sky.

Besides Skywrath Mage is completely and utterly unplayable in this patch, both in pubs and in competitive. And he will remain so as long as Glimmer Cape isn't nerfed to the ground. Like Necrophos...he's another hero that became completely unplayable because of glimmer being bought in every game.

Because Skywrath Mage is in and off himself squisy, and really vunernable to burst. And there's a lot of burst in this meta game.

Like the reason he's generally not a core is because core Skywrath Mage is pretty all in as a hero. He's entirely reliant on the 20-30 window where cores don't have BKB's. Whereas sure, support Skywrath is also useless once BKB's are out (Or has more downtime in fights), but he's a support, you won't have invested the same farm priority in him so it's not as bad..

Plus the hero doesn't really need items. His slow and his Silence both work without gold, and his nukes still hurt a lot without fast item or level transition. Like once you hit 6, you can still make a lot of rotations and a lot of ganks happen, still bring the utility to your team ect ect

Basically; Every patch will still be a BKB patch, because that's one of the few items that every hero has to consider at some point, and pro's buy it in a lot of games where you could probably justify not having it, so it makes life for BKB weak heroes a little problematic.

Also Lina existing and being more all around solid as a core probably doesn't help Skywrath Mage's chances.

But on the other hand, the rise of Bloodseeker will probably mean a lot more Sky. Since Bloodrage damage amp on Arcane Bolt is scary.

EDIT; Glimmer Cape also hurts Core sky's viability. Support not so much, but core definately.

Black King Bars are not his main problem. Core Sky gets a rather fast Scythe of Vyse to deal with BKB's and he can kite BKB carries with Ghost Scepter and Force Staff.

No, the real problem is, you land a perfect Mystic Flare on a guy, he gets instantly Glimmer Caped by a support, and he takes no damage. And since Sky is purely a bursty hero who can do only one combo every 20 seconds...and glimmer's cooldown is even shorter than that...so there's literally nothing you can do about it. Nice item volvo :)

I mean blame Glimmer Cape all you want this patch, but it had nothing to do with him not being a core in prior patches. The fact that one of the most competitive item pick-ups hard counters him does however. Because it makes you very all in by nature of the pick if you want it as a core, and that's a terrible thing for heroes who provide pratically the same utility in the support role. Especially in the competitive scene.

And you need to stop blaming Glimmer Cape so much. The item is very good, but it's not as good as you harp on about it to be. Especially against core Skywrath Mage because you will be online and making kills happen on the map long before Glimmer Cape is out on a support hero. Because core Skywrath Mage is a snowballing hero, who needs to create a gold disparity between himself and the opposing core or else he becomes worthless post BKB's anyway. Basically; Your timing window is before BKB's and Glimmer Capes come out anyway, so the fight the item makes your already trashy mid-game worse means little.

Because really; What does it matter that supports will have Glimmer Cape if enemy cores already have BKB's to make you utterly useless in a fight beyond bursting a poor poor support down. (Which you can still do. I mean Arcane Orb hurts like a truck even if Mystic Flare gets blown on something useless). I mean hell, it's not like Glimmer Cape is the only support item that prevents Mystic Flare from damaging. It's not like there's a really common mobility item that can push heroes out of it, and has been for a long time, and has been the most common support item pick-up for a long time. (Btw, because I know you'll say well you can't force staff in Chronosphere :) you don't see core Skywrath Mage paired with Void that much, because rotating with two of your cores to make all these kills happen is just inefficient).

Essentially the hero has inherant weaknesses in the core role that have hurt it's viablity for a long time now. It still gets picked up situationally in the core role (Hell, we've even had mid Skywrath Mage this patch by Virtus Pro I think it was?. It Won btw) because sometimes you really want that much early-early mid game focus.

But no if you want to keep blaming Glimmer Cape, and ignoring the heroes other inherent issues, that he's had for a very long time as a core, that's fine. I think it's wrong but that's fine for you to argue that.

BKB does NOT make core Skywrath Mage useless because he has mobility and a Scythe of Vyse. He can pretty much blink-sheep the enemy carry in every teamfight and burst him down, and the guy can do nothing about it. Chickens can't use BKB.

Glimmer Cape is a completely different deal. Even if you blink-sheep a guy, there is immediately a response from the enemy supports that cast glimmer on the guy. So no matter who you focus first there will be a glimmer cast in response that completely nullifies your damage. The best you can do is to jump on the support who has the glimmer, disable him and focus him first, but what prevents the enemy team from buying 2 or even 3 glimmers? Nothing. So WHATEVER YOU DO there will be a glimmer cast in response to your initiation and you will deal no damage.

"before" Glimmer Capes come out? They come out instantly. The item is very cheap and has the best buildup ever since it builds from Cloak. They come out at the 15-20 min mark, sometimes even before. In this patch supports get much more gold than before. Remember that a support Earthshaker's blink timing is now 15-20 minutes with the gold changes, so same for glimmers. There is no "before glimmers come out"...the window is just way too short.

BKBs don't make the hero unplayable, since if you initiate first you can disable and burst down heroes before they are activated, and if you get initiated on you can kite them with Ghost Scepter, Eul's Scepter of Divinity and Force Staff. You can wait for BKBs to end and then use your combo. There are ways to play around BKBs. There is *no way* to play around Glimmer Cape. So glimmer makes the hero unplayable.

Core sky has always been a pub thing and not a competitive thing. He's an all-in snowballing mid with no pushing potential whatsoever. It's great if you manage to get 30 kills at the 30 min mark because it's what the hero does best. But it's kind of an all-in way of playing because you *need* those kills. That's just not what competitive players want...competitive players want pushing mids most of the time to take early towers. Sky doesn't offer that.
Besides another reason why core Sky is mainly a pub thing is because in competitive it's better to play a support Sky who uses teamwork to set up Mystic Flare, while in a pub it's better to buy items to set up your Mystic Flare yourself because you can't rely on teamwork.

Oh, and also there's like 90% of the community who thinks Glimmer Cape needs a hard nerf. The item got heavy nerfs as soon as it was introduced and it still needs many more. Can't put that one on me really.

EDIT : Force Staff...that's a fair point and it's indeed a great counter to the hero...but then you can't force people out of Chronosphere, Duel or Black Hole...and those are the setups for Mystic Flare I've seen the most in competitive, with Clockwerk as well. And Sky is only picked in competitive with a setup so doesn't worth on these spells, of course it works against Clock and usual stuns including sheeps though.

I remember seeing core skywrath a few times. It was played around TI4 but disappeared after the nerfs. Generally when a hero who is played mid and support gets nerfed you only see them as support (or sometimes 3) afterwards. Think Elder Titan Earth Spirit.

In the ti4 wildcard matches he was played as a safelaner, but those games were a bit clowny.
As mid i mainly remember seeing him played by dendi, coupled with wisp.
I believe there were some games where he was close to or six slotted.

Cant really find it on datdota, but found some games in gosugamers vod section.

http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/tournaments/3537-d2l-western-challenge/957-playoffs/3539-playoffs/matches/45689-team-empire-dota2-vs-natus-vincere-dota-2?vod=24008

http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/tournaments/4541-battle-arena/matches/52816-natus-vincere-dota-2-vs-virtus-pro-dota2?vod=26023

sanvitch here you go,vp match with mid sky played by illidan
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/tournaments/6822-esportal-dota-2-league/1819-groups/6823-group-a/matches/81019-virtus-pro-dota2-vs-myinsanity?vod=39023

When I played mid skywrath I had constant mana issues. His ult just eats a huge chunk of mana and even with bottle and arcanes it's hard to sustain yourself in a active kind of game (lots of fighting).

I partially agree with hamster. Its about glimmer cape.
I am sorry to take this thread on a different tangent but it is needed to be addressed.
Lets face it guys,
GLIMMER CAPE IS FRIKKIN OP.
Its like a get out of jail free card. A guy with glimmer on survives a full maledict on him with no sweats. Heck, id say it happened to me in an inhouse. What i sense is that with the introduction of this item, many heroes that benefitted last patch from good magic damage that was in the form of delayed burst, aka, Necrophos, have taken a back seat. Its evident from the pro scene response and even my potato bracket is now seeing less of necrophos, skywrath mages,heck even sand king is now less of a pick in my bracket when i play synchronized games with my friends.

It gives a 66% magic resist, typically making every guy an anti mage. More so, it makes the guy invis! Something is not right. I just smell that 6.78 armlet that made you unkillable.This item is the bane to magic casters in many ways.
And i think the meta has taken a path from which there is no turning back. Break makes passive abilities cry, so there is not gonna be a late game carry concept now that anyone buys it. AFAIK,it is not dispelled by manta.

I think that we need to take a step back. We need to change the mechanics back to what resembled a bit of 6.83. Maybe, if i dare suggest, that glimmer cape altho provides a good fade time should not instantly provide that bonus magic resist. If someone, attacks while under glimmer, you only get 25% resist and no further fade. Further, 66% magic resist should be given over the course of 3 seconds.


I reminisce when abilities and passives made heroes and items were just supplementary. Now its going the other way round, making abilities,breakable, heroes disposable, items buyable to reduce CD and what not. The game does not feel the one between 5 heroes against 5 heroes, it more looks like who gets items early and force fights trying to gain advantage, turning advantage into items rather than EXP or objectives.


I am sorry i wrote this on an unrelated thread, but seeing glimmer cape was raised as a topic, i couldnt help myself post it. Please reply if i am wrong. Correct me and tell me what the heck is 6.84 all about if not heroes. Or is it about heroes?