Questions regarding support heroes

by TheSofa �» April 23, 2015 11:31pm | Report
ChiChi, both Storm and WR buy BKB.

Well, the thing is virtually everyone should buy a Black King Bar if need be (and specially against Lina), but believe me, it's been a long time since I've seen a Storm Spirit and a Windranger with one :) (I'm sitting at around 2k, if that helps)

In pubs, people tend to concentrate too much on the items they want to ideally do with the hero (in this case, Bloodstone, Orchid Malevolence, Scythe of Vyse, Aghanim's Scepter, Daedalus and so on), and they forget to counter their enemies. Just to give you an example: a few days ago, I lost a game with an Anti-Mage that insisted on buying a Manta Style and a Talisman of Evasion against Earthshaker, Phantom Assassin and a Spirit Breaker already with a Monkey King Bar. He then simply refused to buy the Monkey King Bar we asked him to. We tried explaining to him in every possible way how his item choices should be based on the enemy and how we would lose if he wasn't able to hit PA (and how he died more easily to Earth Shaker all the time because of his Manta ilusions, etc), but he simply answered "that's not my build, I won't do it". And Phantom Assassin bought a Butterfly and rekted...

Of course indeed we should not be expecting our enemies to do the fool thing, so you're right, both Storm Spirit and Windranger can perfectly fit a Black King Bar in their build, but I was trying to give examples of heroes that most never do (contrary to heroes like Phantom Assassin and Sven, where is 99% of the times core). Perhaps other examples would fit better here? Who would you say are almost never expected to buy a BKB?

by TheSofa ���» April 23, 2015 11:31pm | Report
ChiChi, both Storm and WR buy BKB.

Well, the thing is virtually everyone should buy a Black King Bar if need be (and specially against Lina), but believe me, it's been a long time since I've seen a Storm Spirit and a Windranger with one :) (I'm sitting at around 2k, if that helps)

In pubs, people tend to concentrate too much on the items they want to ideally do with the hero (in this case, Bloodstone, Orchid Malevolence, Scythe of Vyse, Aghanim's Scepter, Daedalus and so on), and they forget to counter their enemies. Just to give you an example: a few days ago, I lost a game with an Anti-Mage that insisted on buying a Manta Style and a Talisman of Evasion against Earthshaker, Phantom Assassin and a Spirit Breaker already with a Monkey King Bar. He then simply refused to buy the Monkey King Bar we asked him to. We tried explaining to him in every possible way how his item choices should be based on the enemy and how we would lose if he wasn't able to hit PA (and how he died more easily to Earth Shaker all the time because of his Manta ilusions, etc), but he simply answered "that's not my build, I won't do it". And Phantom Assassin bought a Butterfly and rekted...

Of course indeed we should not be expecting our enemies to do the fool thing, so you're right, both Storm Spirit and Windranger can perfectly fit a Black King Bar in their build, but I was trying to give examples of heroes that most never do (contrary to heroes like Phantom Assassin and Sven, where is 99% of the times core). Perhaps other examples would fit better here? Who would you say are almost never expected to buy a BKB?

by TheSofa �» April 23, 2015 11:31pm | Report
ChiChi, both Storm and WR buy BKB.

Well, the thing is virtually everyone should buy a Black King Bar if need be (and specially against Lina), but believe me, it's been a long time since I've seen a Storm Spirit and a Windranger with one :) (I'm sitting at around 2k, if that helps)

In pubs, people tend to concentrate too much on the items they want to ideally do with the hero (in this case, Bloodstone, Orchid Malevolence, Scythe of Vyse, Aghanim's Scepter, Daedalus and so on), and they forget to counter their enemies. Just to give you an example: a few days ago, I lost a game with an Anti-Mage that insisted on buying a Manta Style and a Talisman of Evasion against Earthshaker, Phantom Assassin and a Spirit Breaker already with a Monkey King Bar. He then simply refused to buy the Monkey King Bar we asked him to. We tried explaining to him in every possible way how his item choices should be based on the enemy and how we would lose if he wasn't able to hit PA (and how he died more easily to Earth Shaker all the time because of his Manta ilusions, etc), but he simply answered "that's not my build, I won't do it". And Phantom Assassin bought a Butterfly and rekted...

Of course indeed we should not be expecting our enemies to do the fool thing, so you're right, both Storm Spirit and Windranger can perfectly fit a Black King Bar in their build, but I was trying to give examples of heroes that most never do (contrary to heroes like Phantom Assassin and Sven, where is 99% of the times core). Perhaps other examples would fit better here? Who would you say are almost never expected to buy a BKB?

Still really not a fan of support Lina. Hero is very level dependent, and she's at the core a snowballing ganker no matter how you play her. She needs a fast level 11 and a fast Euls. She's a hero who needs a level advantage to be effective, so if she doesn't get momentum she'll fall off really hard. And, if you need a support, well... Lion.
Not to mention, Lina pushes the lane, which is that last thing you want to do as a support.
A Lina with Arcanes/mek 30 minutes into the game is pretty much useless.

Back when I played a lot of Lina I played her exclusively offlane. Like Death Prophet or Leshrac, all these heroes with a spammy nuke are actually really good offlaners since they can just spam their nuke for CS with a Tranquil Boots/ Soul Ring and be very annoying harassers. And she can stun to get out of tricky situations. For me offlane is mostly about long range farming under pressure, and about trading hits with supports...not about having an escape :)
So for me, a pub Lina who doesn't go mid -> solo offlane or dual offlane all the way.