Sange and Yasha- Underpowered, or just Ignored?

Until S&Y can purge ANY debuff it will inferior to Manta Style.

Yasha is good on Spirit Breaker. Bonus Move Speed boosts his attack, plus attack speed makes him hit more often. I imagine adding the maim and strength of Sange and Yasha just makes it even better for him. I don't feel like he would benefit as much from Manta Style as some heroes like Viper.

Well my post pointed out that S&Y is better than Manta Style on melee carries, since the slow is more relevant. These heroes typically get BKB anyways, so a Manta Style debuff is not so useful - the exception is Anti-Mage, who never gets BKB anyway.

Manta will always be good for that projectile dodge though, if you have fast fingers I guess Manta will always be better.

^You missed out on a few key points on Manta's illusions as well as its lategame potential when compared to SnY.

1. Illusions can provide vision around you, making you less susceptible to ganks when you're supposed to be farming your next big item after Manta itself.
2. The slow itself provides little to nothing (when chasing people, you're gonna catch up to people anyways with a good teammate supporting you) and is unreliable (Manta illusions dealing a percentage of your damage being more reliable)
3. Raw HP provided by the Sange component falls off lategame as opposed to the EHP provided by the Ultimate Orb from the Manta.
4. Sieging racks are easier when you have three of you hitting it as opposed to only 1 hero dealing around 10-20 damage extra plus a slow on immovable buildings (someone else pointed out the incredible damage when sieging racks with Luna and her illusions with glaives bouncing all over the place, can't remember who it was or where I read it, my point being Luna with SnY is laughable).
5. Although Radiance doesn't stack when you have multiple illusions surrounding 1 target, it still is useful as you can send in a couple of illusions to burn off some enemy HP before a teamfight breaks out.
6. More mana burn from some carries who build diffusal (PotM, PL, Spectre).

Your point about MELEE carries finding the SnY slow being better could be (I'm not sure) based on some particular heroes who get kited around a lot (Ursa proving your point, maybe Alchemist/Brewmaster when their stuns/slows are cooling down). This is why Blink dagger/Force staff is usually a core on these heroes to provide that extra power you need to chase down heroes. Blink and Manta, although more expensive, provides utilities that can never be found on an SnY (the blink itself as well as the illusions, try running away from the whole enemy team using an SnY's movespeed back to your base as opposed to blinking into trees and TPing out).

A few posts back someone mentioned getting both HH and Manta on a carry. This IMO is a waste of slots as the evasion can be better replaced by the one on a Butterfly which provides AS as well as damage for your carry. The HH can easily be picked up by a solo offlaner or a support (preferably a roaming one).

However, I have also seen some Alchemists picking up an SnY after Phase Boots in pro games. The SnY was picked up relatively early in the game (10~14 mins) and the Alch got just a few successful ganks from it. It fell off pretty hard when the other team finished their damage/AS items (Manta/Butterfly especially) when the Alch was still busy farming an AC/Heart.

TL;DR The SnY has a pretty small timing window when it's usefulness peaks (early mid-game around 10-17 mins into the game) while Manta is excellent at any stage of the game.

what do you guys feel about building s&y on slark? i consider it better than basher as the first big item after say treads, drum, wand. Take into consideration the movement speed, more hp, agi/str is always welcomed as well, not to mention the attack speed, and there's a slow... every buff this item gives is suitable for slark. The only thing i can think of going for before s&y is probably the bkb or in some situations orchid. One last thought, manta is probably a little better than s&y for slark but it costs more and is not as smooth when building, plus, slark's skills doesn't necessarily synergize with manta style like antimage does.

Yes, he already has a Self-Purge from Dark Pact so S&Y is vastly superior to Manta Style for him. As for alternatives, Orchid Malevolence is only worth it if you need to build a fast Silence Item to lock down an Escape Hero. If you're getting Farmed and see the game going late, then an Eye of Skadi works wonders on Slark. Skull Basher is good against Heroes that are hard to lockdown, but have no strong Escape Mechanism, like Juggernaut, etc.

Thanks for your reply Xyrus, you are absolutely right on your evaluation. I feel that Manta Style isn't bad but it's not something that is overpowering S&Y when it comes to slark. I hardly ever deter from treads wand drum to S&Y to Skadi to Abyssal to Butterfly on slark. The only other things i sometimes like to get are linkin and bkb.

I'm really surprised to read this, as Sange and Yasha is a pretty common extension on Lifestealer; I would've rather talked about the Vanguard (Purge seems the only one actually liking it) or Veil of Discord if wondering about underused/underestimated items.

I just wanted to say, any STR Hero is kind of countered by kiting, since they're all melee: I bet you all missed a kill because Wraith King is too slow to reach the enemy or wasted Open Wounds on a Slark that pounced away and couldn't reach the enemy Elder Titan, even more than once. Well, other than going for Phase and Drums, I think getting a Sange and Yasha is the best thing you can do in this case: the lack of mobility of those carries make them unable to both escape from ganks and (as said before) kill distant Heroes; SnY is just the best item for melees without gap closers.
It's good on AGI Heroes too (whether they're ranged or not), since the strength it gives increase their HP pool: Razor, Ursa, Shadow Fiend and Troll Warlord benefit from it a lot, especially because they don't really need more damage since they already have attack speed or built-in damage.

People always bring up the usual "But it's so inefficient for its price!" statement - and that's true - but most of the time you take SnY when you already have damage and just need a way to reach/run away from enemies.

i didnt really read all of the posts above this one, so forgive me if i am repeating things which have already been said.

I, for my part, simply think that the problem with SnY is its odd combination of strength and agility. If you seek dmg for your agility carry, you will almost always go for Manta Style while you will also almost always prefer Heaven's Halberd as defensive addition for strength heroes.

The Maim passive also is rather underwhelming if you compare it to something like a Skull Basher - which btw is also the preferd dps choice for strength carries most of the time - as it takes you 6-7 hits to merely slow the target...

Imo there really only are a handfull of heroes that can profit from this item. Lifestealer for example profits very much from the movementspeed and attackspeed bonus, while he is also getting some armor from the 16 agility - which he needs considering his common counters are mostly physical dps heroes. Ursa is the inverted example - as the bonus str gives him the tankyness to survive melee combat while at the same time provides him with bonus dmg from his ultimate. Apart from this 2 heroes i wouldnt really consider SnY as "core" for ANY other heroes though, as those have better itemization-options.

Heroes I build Sange and Yasha on:-

Lifestealer - usually as a 5th or 6th Slot Item after I have enough Damage and Tankiness to win Teamfights, and just want more Mobility for Split Pushing with Boots of Travel, or for chasing stragglers down.

Dragon Knight - same as [[Lifestealer], although I rarely get enough Farm on him to do this

Razor - Upgrading Eye of the Storm, making him Tankier, and making him more Mobile are all I care about, and Sange and Yasha lets me Charge down enemies, giving them next to no chance to run away.

Slark:- The mobility is great for Chasing and the Slow can stack with Eye of Skadi. Thanks to Pounce, you have a way of ensuring you get enough hits in to Proc it.