Sange and Yasha- Underpowered, or just Ignored?

It is very limited amount of heroes that makes good use of it, but Ursa and Slark comes to mind. It has quite a good buildup, especially on squishy semi-carries.

I personally find that SnY works best on heros who have a need for both Str and Agi early and don't necessarily need to build into the more expensive versions of these items. I often find myself building it on Brewmaster. Building a HH on him seems a bit redundant, as the only added benefit (other than some better stats) is a +5% to Evasion, and even that is questionable, depending on how the game prioritizes passives vs. items. SnY seems like a better choice, especially when you are not trying to go for 15 kills, but more trying to make kills for your team.

To be honest, I'd love to see some math on why SnY tends to not stack up against comperable items. I realize that there is reasoning behind it, but I'd like to see what it is being compared to and why.

Sange and Yasha | Manta Style

16 agility 26
16 strength 10
15 attack speed 15
12% move speed 10%
12 damage
Intelligence 10
4100 gold 5050

Manta gives 2 more armor and 190 more mana

Sange gives 114 more health and a meager 12 damage.

Since they are so similar Sange and Yasha would be better since it is cheeper but you also have to look at the active powers for both. Sange and Yasha has a much worse version of Shivas Guard wile on the other hand Manta Style has an incredible ability. With Manta you can purge your self of so much: Viper Strike, Enfeeble, Battle Hunger, Frostbite, Static Link, Heavens Halberd, Veil of Discord, Sange and Yasha. those are only a few of the de-buffs Manta can remove.

Heaven's Halberd is a very powerful item, extremely cost effective survivability and the ability to disarm someone. If you can disarm FV before he drops his Chrono you can essentially shut down their team fighting advantage, and in general just a great choice for anti-carry.

@ Mirror: I do get the sense of how useful Manta Style is. 9/10 times I go for it on Agility Heroes, mostly because Agility = Attack Speed and Damage, so in all instances, it adds a boatload of damage, plus the added benefit of some HP and Mana. In other words, you get some of everything you need. I usually don't have very much trouble getting to that point with those I use it on as it fits very well into a carry's budget, and it has a lot of nice stepping stone items to get to Yasha in the first place, giving a good springboard to farm/kill into the Ultimate Orb. It makes that extra 1k Gold seem like nothing.

@ xCO2: I can see the effectiveness of the abilities on a more tanky type of build (usually what I try and build my version of Brewmaster into), and the utility of the active is nice. However, the difference between Heaven's Halbert and Manta Style is that you do not get quite the same mix of benefits towards different aspects. Though you do get a good deal more damage, you don't get any manuverability benefits, attack speed, armor (I realize the armor is rather negligible from the +16 to Agi, but it is still there), mana, etc.

My point in saying all this is not so much as to why the Heaven's Halbert is bad (which would be a false statement, as it is definately good) so much as to why someone might pick the Sange and Yasha over this item initially. The Sange and Yasha offer more utility and cover most areas that a Strength or Agility character would be interested in touching. Granted, they don't give as great a benefit to individual areas as some of the others (Manta Style probably outclassing it in most regards, especially on an Agility character), but the various benefits are rather appealing when you just glance at the items.

I think that one of the thing that makes this seem more attractive to many people playing a Str Character is the Agi/Atk Speed/Movement Speed from the Yasha, which is usually something missing from other items that give such stat bonuses in Str lines. For Agi Characters often see the Str for HP and the Maim for a bit of surviveability and chase factors.

I suppose all this is to say that this might be why a lot of new players favor this item in general. It does not require any sort of extra management of abilities, which can be intimidating to some people who are still getting used to the idea of handling 3-4 activated abilities and when to use them, and simutaneously gives you a plethora of stats that are almost always useful on some level.

I suppose all this is to try and emphasize these basic points:

1. It might not be crazy powerful, but it does a little bit of everything, sans mana.

2. It requires no truly major purchases (the most expensive 'parts' being 1k), so you almost never have missed opportunities to buy something during downtime (ie. Death, returns for health, etc).

3. Its easy to remember (All very basic items for construction).

4. Its almost always beneficial on some level. (Its hard to complain about getting more damage, HP, armor, attack speed, AND movement speed all at once).

Though it may not stack up as well against some of the slightly higher cost items statwise, it is easier to mentally accept having to save for a 1k item over a 2.1k item, especially when you are new and have less belief that you can afford to wait to buy larger ticket items.

Anyway, those are just some of the reasons that I think it draws a lot of newer players. As far as other items go, I'd also like to know what other items tend to draw attention over Sange and Yasha (***ide from HH and MS, seeing as those are built off the same item foundations, respectively). I can hardly imagine that those are the only two items that are in the running.

Is it ever worth it to buy full Manta and Halberd instead of SnY, or is that clogging your inventory too much?

I know this is an 8 month old thread but I recently remembered about Sange and Yasha and started remembering that I got it a bunch back in 2008-2010 but NEVER get it anymore (very high Skill tier) and often poke fun at those few individuals that do get it.

The biggest issue I see with the item, as others have pointed out, is the cost for what you get. Sange and Yasha is really expensive for what you get. On all but maybe one or two heroes I cannot see myself building it as a stepping stone to Heaven's Halberd and Manta Style and that's mostly due to the fact that Heaven's Halberd is extremely situation and is countered very easily with a Black King Bar or purge (it's no longer dispelled by Manta Style) and those situations are if you can afford Heaven's Halberd very early in the game against an Ursa, Huskar, Phantom Assassin, or even any carry that hasn't got their Black King Bar yet. Most people just don't get the item because there are often items that are more important, not better but more important. I've probably bought Heaven's Halberd maybe 5-8 times and had it been a benefit with disarm.

Most of the time if you have the ability to get Sange and Yasha you'll want the end game Manta Style that you get out of it but then you'll just have a Sange sitting in your inventory because you dont want to waste the 1800 gold on an Talisman of Evasion

Ultimately Sange and Yasha becomes an option when you have your Yasha already but your farm has stalled out or you keep getting killed and cannot get the Ultimate Orb to finish Manta Style so you need more hp.

Sange and Yasha just got buffed :) :) :) :)

I remember seeing XBOCT picking up an SnY recently, forgot on which hero

With the new 16%ms buff, we might see this item more now after Yasha!

Manta Style vs S&Y
+10 AGI, +10 INT, +Mirror Image

Sange and Yasha vs Manta
-950Gold, +6 STR, +1 AS, +6% MS, +16 DMG, +Maim


For melee AGI heroes: some extra strength, +20 or so MS (now better since most boots are nerfed) seem really good. +10 AGI is not so important because that's only 1.4 armor, 10 AS and 10 DMG, which is sort of mitigated by +16 DMG and +1 AS. Maim is probably better than Mirror Image anyways on a melee, AND S&Y is almost 1000 gold cheaper.

---

Heaven's Halberd vs S&Y
-250Gold, +4 STR, +9 DMG, +25 EVA, -16 AS, -16% MS, +Disarm, ~=~Maim

Still inferior to Heaven's Halberd on a STR melee hero though, the Evasion and Disarm is too good to be passed up in exchange for AS and MS.