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5 Votes

All Flesh Is Sand

November 25, 2013 by blanning
Comments: 12    |    Views: 17718    |   


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blanning | November 23, 2013 11:36am
Xyrus wrote:


He is a Support, because he has no "Carrying" Skills, and Burrowstrike is most definitely a Support Skill. His Skills alone won't get him very far Late Game, and they certainly don't improve his Auto-Attack like Alchemist's Chemical Rage, Anti-Mage's Feedback, etc. You can play him as a Semi-Carry, similar to how Nyx Assassin or Rubick can be played as Semi-Carries, but there are plenty of Heroes who make rely much more on Farming, or make better use of Farm.

He also requires very few Items to be a major threat in the Early Game, a well played Epicentre + Burrowstrike can be all you need to win a Teamfight, a Blink Dagger helps land this combo a lot easier, but you can still pull it off without one.

Also, you mention that he is an Initiator and Disabler, this doesn't change whether he should be a Support or not (pay no attention to Valve's useless Tags, they're only there for Bot AIs). A Support is a Hero that doesn't need much, if any, Farm to be effective, and isn't much more effective given Farm. Sand King does benefit from a few Items, such as Blink Dagger, Arcane Boots, etc., but he can still own without them, making him an ideal Farmed Support (Position 4)

Again, while Boots of Speed help him to land Burrowstrike early on, they're not needed to land it, whereas an Animal Courier, Observer Wards, Tangoes, Clarity, etc. can be vital to you and your Team right from the start of the game.

Are you unable to land Burrowstrike because your opponent keeps running away from you whenever you get near? Congratulations, you're doing an excellent job as a Support, by scaring the Offlaners away from your Carry and his/her Farm (Zoning them out).

The difference between Semi-Support and Hard Support comes down to the Hard Support trying to buy as many Observer Wards, Sentry Wards, etc. so that the Semi-Support can Farm a few Items with their Gold, but you're still expected to buy Wards, Couriers etc. when the Hard Support cannot afford them, or is close to finishing an Item for themselves. It only applies when there's another Support player though.


Fair enough. You are using "support" in a much broader way than most people seem to, but I agree in principle at least with what you are saying there.

As to always skipping the boots, have to disagree, if there is a true support then they should get the support stuff and Sand King should at least start out as far into his initiator/disabler role as possible. (And I know what you mean about the steam tags, but that is not why I see him that way, some heroes are great carrys, but not any good at all at initiating or disabling. Those are distinct roles, and they are really Sand King's strong suits.)

Thanks for all the patience and further explanations, I appreciate it and I am sure that I am not the only one who will benefit from your answers.
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Xyrus (104) | November 21, 2013 3:45pm
blanning wrote:

First, why do you say Sand King is a support? He has no support skills and is tagged as initiator, roamer, disabler, semi-carry. Do you mean support as in not a hard carry? Or as in an actual support role Hero? Cause I would have to disagree and say that he is best as an initiator and disabler and really is not well suited to playing as a full support.

He is a Support, because he has no "Carrying" Skills, and Burrowstrike is most definitely a Support Skill. His Skills alone won't get him very far Late Game, and they certainly don't improve his Auto-Attack like Alchemist's Chemical Rage, Anti-Mage's Feedback, etc. You can play him as a Semi-Carry, similar to how Nyx Assassin or Rubick can be played as Semi-Carries, but there are plenty of Heroes who make rely much more on Farming, or make better use of Farm.

He also requires very few Items to be a major threat in the Early Game, a well played Epicentre + Burrowstrike can be all you need to win a Teamfight, a Blink Dagger helps land this combo a lot easier, but you can still pull it off without one.

Also, you mention that he is an Initiator and Disabler, this doesn't change whether he should be a Support or not (pay no attention to Valve's useless Tags, they're only there for Bot AIs). A Support is a Hero that doesn't need much, if any, Farm to be effective, and isn't much more effective given Farm. Sand King does benefit from a few Items, such as Blink Dagger, Arcane Boots, etc., but he can still own without them, making him an ideal Farmed Support (Position 4)
blanning wrote:

And second (and tied to the first) if not a support, then why not boots? Just saying that everyone knows this does not help me understand, is there a good reason why a disabler/semi-carry should not get boots right off, or is that just the current accepted wisdom?

Again, while Boots of Speed help him to land Burrowstrike early on, they're not needed to land it, whereas an Animal Courier, Observer Wards, Tangoes, Clarity, etc. can be vital to you and your Team right from the start of the game.

Are you unable to land Burrowstrike because your opponent keeps running away from you whenever you get near? Congratulations, you're doing an excellent job as a Support, by scaring the Offlaners away from your Carry and his/her Farm (Zoning them out).
blanning wrote:

So by semi-support you just mean buying courier? Does he do anything else supportish or does this role just fall to him since many high level games tend to be short on true supports to do this?

The difference between Semi-Support and Hard Support comes down to the Hard Support trying to buy as many Observer Wards, Sentry Wards, etc. so that the Semi-Support can Farm a few Items with their Gold, but you're still expected to buy Wards, Couriers etc. when the Hard Support cannot afford them, or is close to finishing an Item for themselves. It only applies when there's another Support player though.
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blanning | November 21, 2013 3:33pm
Sando wrote:

Nobody gonna mention Veil of Discord? I love that item on SK - more mana, armour and health regen...and the active combined with Epicenter is naughty :). Also a fair bit cheaper than Aghanim's Scepter.

SK is a semi-support usually - i.e. he'll usually buy an Animal Courier but not ward. Max Burrowstrike by 7 as it's simply an awesome skill - probably the best level 1 stun in the game (2.17 seconds, 100 damage, multi-target potential) - great way of getting first blood.

He doesn't normally do too much in lane, as a support you won't be farming, so Caustic Finale is redundant unless you're looking to push hard. Later you can use it to flash farm your items quickly.

He can work as a very situational mid (you need the right opponent) using Caustic Finale but it's not common. He can also work as the main offlane farmer with a support, but this formation is unusual in higher level games.

Love his combination with Warlock. They can do sick damage in lane with the combination of Burrowstrike, Caustic Finale and Fatal Bonds. Also a great midgame combo with their ults and Fatal Bonds.


Hmmm, had not thought to try with Veil of Discord yet, i like where that is going though. Have to check it out. Thanks for the tips.

So by semi-support you just mean buying courier? Does he do anything else supportish or does this role just fall to him since many high level games tend to be short on true supports to do this?
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Sando (118) | November 21, 2013 3:10pm
Nobody gonna mention Veil of Discord? I love that item on SK - more mana, armour and health regen...and the active combined with Epicenter is naughty :). Also a fair bit cheaper than Aghanim's Scepter.

SK is a semi-support usually - i.e. he'll usually buy an Animal Courier but not ward. Max Burrowstrike by 7 as it's simply an awesome skill - probably the best level 1 stun in the game (2.17 seconds, 100 damage, multi-target potential) - great way of getting first blood.

He doesn't normally do too much in lane, as a support you won't be farming, so Caustic Finale is redundant unless you're looking to push hard. Later you can use it to flash farm your items quickly.

He can work as a very situational mid (you need the right opponent) using Caustic Finale but it's not common. He can also work as the main offlane farmer with a support, but this formation is unusual in higher level games.

Love his combination with Warlock. They can do sick damage in lane with the combination of Burrowstrike, Caustic Finale and Fatal Bonds. Also a great midgame combo with their ults and Fatal Bonds.
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blanning | November 21, 2013 2:33pm

I'll try to explain my suggestions a bit more in-depth:


1. Not buying boots with your starting gold is one of the first things you learn on Dota: you should buy at least an Animal Courier or a pair of Observer Wards (or both, as most people do) since SK is a support, and then spend the rest of your gold in consumables or branches. And also, if you have troubles harassing you can still do creep pulls.

2. There are very little Heroes on which you don't have to max out their main skill at level 7, and also getting one point in Sand Storm is enough if you're doing well (heck, you don't want to be standstorming for the whole teamfight, you should mostly use it to dodge stuns) or, otherwise, skipping Caustic Finale entirely ensures a lower cooldown and mana cost on Sand Storm so that you can use it more often with less risks of getting killed when you're behind in levels.

3. Nevermind about that, even though I would prefer an extra mobility item ( Force Staff) or an object that would prevent the enemy carry from killing me ( Ghost Scepter) instead of an Agh's most of the time. I would only buy it if I'm doing well, since most of the time you won't be able to complete it in a match with decent players.

4. I read your explanation about the Radiance but it still doesn't convince me; it looks like you rely on your Sand Storm too much and don't even think about the fact that your enenmies might have some Dust of Appearance (SK is very easy to kill when invisible). Also, a Scythe of Vyse/ Shiva's Guard is always better than a Radiance on Sand King in almost every situation.

5. You don't really need damage on SK if you play him the proper way (i.e. as a support), just get a Blink Dagger and shift-queue your Blink after the Epicenter. Burrowstrike is a good stun indeed, but being able to disable a carry for 3.5 seconds(!) is invaluable; most of the time, if the enemy has a BKB, you won't be able to get close enough to Burrowstrike him anyway (unless blinking), while the Scythe has a bigger range. The stats it gives are also pretty helpful.


These suggestion kind of work for every other support too; learning how to play well one of them is basically learning how to play the others.


Thanks for the additions explanations! I appreciate it and will update the guide in several areas most likely.

Just two follow questions though.....

First, why do you say Sand King is a support? He has no support skills and is tagged as initiator, roamer, disabler, semi-carry. Do you mean support as in not a hard carry? Or as in an actual support role Hero? Cause I would have to disagree and say that he is best as an initiator and disabler and really is not well suited to playing as a full support.

And second (and tied to the first) if not a support, then why not boots? Just saying that everyone knows this does not help me understand, is there a good reason why a disabler/semi-carry should not get boots right off, or is that just the current accepted wisdom?

Thanks again and sorry to be such a pest with the questions.
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Peppo_oPaccio (70) | November 21, 2013 1:32pm
I'll try to explain my suggestions a bit more in-depth:


1. Not buying boots with your starting gold is one of the first things you learn on Dota: you should buy at least an Animal Courier or a pair of Observer Wards (or both, as most people do) since SK is a support, and then spend the rest of your gold in consumables or branches. And also, if you have troubles harassing you can still do creep pulls.

2. There are very little Heroes on which you don't have to max out their main skill at level 7, and also getting one point in Sand Storm is enough if you're doing well (heck, you don't want to be standstorming for the whole teamfight, you should mostly use it to dodge stuns) or, otherwise, skipping Caustic Finale entirely ensures a lower cooldown and mana cost on Sand Storm so that you can use it more often with less risks of getting killed when you're behind in levels.

3. Nevermind about that, even though I would prefer an extra mobility item ( Force Staff) or an object that would prevent the enemy carry from killing me ( Ghost Scepter) instead of an Agh's most of the time. I would only buy it if I'm doing well, since most of the time you won't be able to complete it in a match with decent players.

4. I read your explanation about the Radiance but it still doesn't convince me; it looks like you rely on your Sand Storm too much and don't even think about the fact that your enenmies might have some Dust of Appearance (SK is very easy to kill when invisible). Also, a Scythe of Vyse/ Shiva's Guard is always better than a Radiance on Sand King in almost every situation.

5. You don't really need damage on SK if you play him the proper way (i.e. as a support), just get a Blink Dagger and shift-queue your Blink after the Epicenter. Burrowstrike is a good stun indeed, but being able to disable a carry for 3.5 seconds(!) is invaluable; most of the time, if the enemy has a BKB, you won't be able to get close enough to Burrowstrike him anyway (unless blinking), while the Scythe has a bigger range. The stats it gives are also pretty helpful.


These suggestion kind of work for every other support too; learning how to play well one of them is basically learning how to play the others.
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blanning | November 21, 2013 12:09pm
wallensteiN wrote:

i think you should add bkb


Thanks for the feedback. Note that Black King Bar is already in there for situations where you are getting hit with magic a lot and need it. For the cost though it really just sits there in a lot of matches so I am hesitant to make it part of the core and bump something you will use more often. Particularly when some halfway decent teamwork can resolve any problems that BKB would fix for you anyway.
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blanning | November 21, 2013 12:06pm

Never start with Boots. Also, the skillbuild is pretty random and you don't consider any other mid-game item besides the Blink Dagger (there are many good items including Force Staff, Ghost Scepter and maybe Mekansm); you should definitely remove the Radiance too, since it's pretty terrible if you get it after ~25 minutes and don't use it to farm. You could also add a Scythe of Vyse between the late game items, as the hex is so good and you don't really need damage.


Thanks for the feedback and help. I have a number of questions so please forgive the list...
  1. Why not boots first? Sand King needs them to harass well and play the role I am building him into, so why not the sooner the better, especially since you did not offer anything else he needs more right out of the gate.
  2. The skill build is not random, it focuses points where they do the most bang for the buck considering the role I put forward in the guide. What made you think it was random? How can I present it better so it is clear that there is a purpose? Maybe a section justifying when I put each skill point in?
  3. As to mid-game items there is not much gap between Blink Dagger and Aghanim's Scepter which I placed after it. How would any of those suggested items be worth slowing down my later game items to get?
  4. I am of two minds about the Radiance, as I stated in the guide if you can get it early game and are using Sand Storm to good effect and with little countering, it makes a huge difference in how you can control team fights. Notice that I did say that or Heart of Tarrasque and gave the situations to consider each in. Do those explanations need more clarity? Or do they not cover situations you find yourself in?
  5. I do like Scythe of Vyse, but considering how much stun potential you already have and how badly you DO need the damage if the game runs on at all, I am reluctant to recommend it for Sand King.

I will try implementing some of your suggestions and see how they work out for this role. Thanks for the feedback and I would welcome clarification on the points I raised, maybe I amd just missing where you are going with some of this stuff.
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blanning | November 21, 2013 11:56am
riptupFaitH wrote:

its an ok guide but why not implement a Magic Wand in the starting items since its so vital early going into mid game... i would generally start [tango, mana pot and 3 branches]


First, thanks for the feedback. I know that guide needs lots of work, and you are helping, so I appreciate it.

I do not personally like mana pot as it slows me down getting something that will last longer Sage's Mask, but I will look at it again and see how it works. Also for this build the branches do not build into anything that Sand King really needs, while the boots are essential to his ability to harass.
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wallensteiN (1) | November 21, 2013 9:35am
i think you should add bkb
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Peppo_oPaccio (70) | November 21, 2013 9:30am
Never start with Boots. Also, the skillbuild is pretty random and you don't consider any other mid-game item besides the Blink Dagger (there are many good items including Force Staff, Ghost Scepter and maybe Mekansm); you should definitely remove the Radiance too, since it's pretty terrible if you get it after ~25 minutes and don't use it to farm. You could also add a Scythe of Vyse between the late game items, as the hex is so good and you don't really need damage.
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riptupFaitH (1) | November 21, 2013 8:04am
its an ok guide but why not implement a Magic Wand in the starting items since its so vital early going into mid game... i would generally start [tango, mana pot and 3 branches]
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