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2 weeks in, requesting any advice

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Forum » New Player Help » 2 weeks in, requesting any advice 23 posts - page 2 of 3
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by DzikaPanda » May 2, 2013 1:22am | Report
Why you don't want to play with other people and stick with bots? I guess you will be matched with russians anyway and Drow Ranger, Sniper, Ursa and Huskar will be 100% picks, so generally their skill will be much lower than yours. I remember my first 10 games I played with Enigma and I lost all of them, then I changed to fire based heroes such as Lina and Clinkz cause "oh they look so cool and must be op" and thats the moment where i started winning and even carrying my first games, later I was randoming to learn other heroes or picking ones I find strong or annoying to do the same to opposite team, thats how I learned to play dota. Also reading ****loads of guides in free time, even these for begginers and heroes i don't play.
"When game is going full ******, you can only go with it. If you start going against it, if you start going half ******, you´re ****ing done for. When Aloha decides to go middle rubick you let him, and you start buying orb of venom on invoker. That's how dota works" -n0tail

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by SkyStormSpectre » May 2, 2013 5:57am | Report
L0bstz0r wrote:



i dont agree with this. a supports job in the early game is far more difficult and crucial than that of lets say a hardcarry.

where a hardcarry "only" needs to farm and not get killed the jobs of a support cover a wider area:
placing wards and buying courier for example already mean, that the support player has less startitems and is more vulnerable at the beginning of the game.

Secondly supports should harass the lane and try to let the carry farm, which does 2 things
a. they arent getting any items soon and therefor fall even more behind in statgain (and therefor survivability)
b. since they should be the main aggressors on the lane, the chance, that they get initiated on is rather high --> a good support player has to see, when to be aggressive and when its better to retreat, else wise they will just feed.

playing a good support is harder than playing the carry in the early stages of the game since a supportplayer needs high mechanical knowledge (both of his lanemate and the opposing laners) and good decisionmaking.

Its true that the need for supports fall off later in the game, but a support that gives the enemy carry 3 freekills in the first 15 mins of the game, may already have lost u the game.

But the point is, if you, as a carry, don't do well at the start (as an inexperienced player might), you will be useless later in the game, while a support is useful for the most part of the game regardless of level or having a bit of a hard time.

Being a Hard Carry isn't all that easy. You need to last-hit well, farm, know where to farm safely, know when to enter a fight and when not to, have map awareness to prevent being ganked, especially in jungle (because your supports might be busy in teamfights elsewhere and unable to check the entire map 100% of the time, especially in pubs), etc.

--

Oh and yes, there isn't necessarily strict roles in bot games, but the heroes designated as Support have better game presence later in the game even when having little farm, while a carry requires a fair amount of farm to be useful.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by L0bstz0r » May 2, 2013 6:58am | Report


But the point is, if you, as a carry, don't do well at the start (as an inexperienced player might), you will be useless later in the game, while a support is useful for the most part of the game regardless of level or having a bit of a hard time.

Being a Hard Carry isn't all that easy. You need to last-hit well, farm, know where to farm safely, know when to enter a fight and when not to, have map awareness to prevent being ganked, especially in jungle (because your supports might be busy in teamfights elsewhere and unable to check the entire map 100% of the time, especially in pubs), etc.



well...if u switch the "farming" part with ganking and warding, its pretty similar to a supportsjob. providing map awareness, knowing when to be were. Making decisions if its safe to initiate or when its better to retreat..etc. I dont say, that the hardcarries job isnt hard or important....im just saying that a (especially new) player may struggle more with correctly playing a support role than a carry role ---> though neither is advisable for new players imo.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by jawzy » May 2, 2013 7:24am | Report
Hmm. A couple posts saying I should "Jump in to real games." I was kinda thinking about that last night, as I was beginning to get bored with playing bots. They do the same thing every match and even if you are "losing badly" in the k:d department its not that hard to still win. In my last 5-8 games I was able to contribute to my team winning, and in a couple I was carrying the team (I was shocked). (still randoming, though now I am getting to the point where I am getting repeats) - Watch, I'll start playing real people and get "hard" heroes to play! ha!

DzikaPanda wrote:

...Also reading ****loads of guides in free time, even these for begginers and heroes i don't play.


I try and read guides, but I am a complete hands on learner. Any specific places to find good guides other than dotafire?

Support vs carry: My un-experienced take is this, under-leveled carrys just get killed instantly if they try and engage in a fight. Under-leveled supports can at least cast a few buffs/heals (from a safe-ish position) and run away and usually live. Warding has been pretty much non-existent in the games I've played. I try to watch ward placement in pro-matches, I have a very general idea of where they should go, though I need to begin to use them.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Yasutsuna » May 2, 2013 7:29am | Report
According what you say, it is quite true. Playing a carry might be harder than a supporter. However, a supporter that randomly wards or simply spam his or her skills will lead to dead weight to their lane mate.

The warding issue can be resolved by asking your allies to pinpoint where to ward, but to most new players, they will normally spam their skills or use them at the wrong time (i did it when i first started playing). It is most preferred that new players play heroes that your allies doesn't rely too much on.

For example, Lifestealer and the sort. Skeleton King is also a good choice. A good team will always help to guide you. Don't be afraid to ask them when you should fire and so and so.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » May 2, 2013 7:48am | Report
It's an interesting debate which roles new players should start in...support you're vulnerable, carrying requires good last hitting and item choice, ganking good game knowledge and initiation is incredibly dangerous when done badly.

Personally, I encourage new players to start with support unless they've got a mindset that really suits one of the other roles. It is difficult to master, but it's relatively easy to learn the basics, and you've got more room to make mistakes.

Playing Bots does get boring, people are infinitely more interesting. I still think you're crazy to try and random so much at this stage, but good luck :)
A full list of my guides is here

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by DzikaPanda » May 2, 2013 8:13am | Report
Guys you are talking about each role, but you forgot that we are also talking about low lvl pubs, where carries carry because they got lucky kills not farm, where supports rush aghs and stack mekansm, where initiators don't initiate and semi carries farm in jungle. Let new players play what they want to play and learn how to do some things. He won't play with perfect carries or supports, so why not give him a chance? If he fail he will know what to do better next time, rly =.=

@jawzy: Im reading guides on dotafire and sometimes on steam when I see interesting title.
"When game is going full ******, you can only go with it. If you start going against it, if you start going half ******, you´re ****ing done for. When Aloha decides to go middle rubick you let him, and you start buying orb of venom on invoker. That's how dota works" -n0tail

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by SkyStormSpectre » May 2, 2013 8:44am | Report
L0bstz0r wrote:



well...if u switch the "farming" part with ganking and warding, its pretty similar to a supportsjob. providing map awareness, knowing when to be were. Making decisions if its safe to initiate or when its better to retreat..etc. I dont say, that the hardcarries job isnt hard or important....im just saying that a (especially new) player may struggle more with correctly playing a support role than a carry role ---> though neither is advisable for new players imo.


You are not wrong. At the start, playing anything and simply using skills will already help as many of the support and carry's responsibilities aren't very important because the enemy won't use them either, and its more of a practice thing still. So technically, you can then choose almost any hero, except those that are actually hard to play like Invoker.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by L0bstz0r » May 2, 2013 3:41pm | Report
DzikaPanda wrote:

Guys you are talking about each role, but you forgot that we are also talking about low lvl pubs, where carries carry because they got lucky kills not farm, where supports rush aghs and stack mekansm, where initiators don't initiate and semi carries farm in jungle. Let new players play what they want to play and learn how to do some things. He won't play with perfect carries or supports, so why not give him a chance? If he fail he will know what to do better next time, rly =.=


guess u are right. Since we can assume that the opposite side also has (somewhat) new players, mistakes will be made on both sides, and the whole discussion is forfeit.

Also i agree with the statements, that playing vs bots wont help u learn the game as fast, as if u were playing vs real players. Bots usually do the same every game ....(on medium level) they dont harass, dont deny and lasthit rather poorly. Furthermore, when the first tower falls, they start roaming as 5 and instantly tp (as 5) to a tower that is threatened by a single player.

cant recall if this has been mentioned yet, but also try to look for some pro streamers, that play heroes that u are familiar with. Often u can already profit form watching some1 doing a spell-chain correctly, or how and when he uses his spells.... at least this helped me alot when i was new. Best would be a stream with commentating, so u know what is going on and why.
Tobiwans stream on twitch.tv comes into mind.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by jawzy » May 2, 2013 8:04pm | Report
So I jumped into real games today. Went pretty well actually. Despite playing new heros every game, I contributed very well. I was not the worst on my team, even in the losses. I even carried my team one game. I feel as I am off to a great start. Thanks for the confidence, and tips!!

L0bstz0r wrote:

Also i agree with the statements, that playing vs bots wont help u learn the game as fast, as if u were playing vs real players. Bots usually do the same every game ....(on medium level) they dont harass, dont deny and lasthit rather poorly. Furthermore, when the first tower falls, they start roaming as 5 and instantly tp (as 5) to a tower that is threatened by a single player.

cant recall if this has been mentioned yet, but also try to look for some pro streamers, that play heroes that u are familiar with. Often u can already profit form watching some1 doing a spell-chain correctly, or how and when he uses his spells.... at least this helped me alot when i was new. Best would be a stream with commentating, so u know what is going on and why.
Tobiwans stream on twitch.tv comes into mind.


The hard bots are better than most of the people I was playing with. The hard bots, last hit/deny far better, position themselves better, and don't make dumb mistakes. By mistakes I mean, caught afk, accidently click the minimap while running away, or get greedy/over-extend, etc. But the bots do the same thing every game and you can beat them even if they have a big level lead.

I watch pro-games every day. I tend to forget what I see in their games in the heat of intense battles... unfortunately!!!

jawzy



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