The 6.88 Discussion Thread

PA should be repicked then. Keepo.
Manta PA is underwhelming as hell and skadi on PA is worse that satanic in every possible way.

By the way she still needs another buff. Don't forget that OSFrog.

Choose between

- change Blur to a backtrack (even just a ~20% chance is fine for me)
- create a new (real) damage item in this game that isn't rapier (that gives 100+ damage)
- Give her the ability to refresh her cooldowns with an active from her ult

And then, only then, will she be a good hero. She's still mediocre right now.

Did the Dagger suffer any change in the last patch? Cause I thought it didnt', but meanwhile there was semi patches or something, and I remember you saying before the new dagger sucked cause you couldn't last hit with it.

Echo Sabre seems indeed useless on PA, you need other stuff.

Regarding your build with Vanguard ("told you so"?): http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/forum/theorycrafting/new-pa-build-vanguard-72789

6.87c

Increased Stifling Dagger​ base damage from 60 to 75.


which makes it better for last hitting than the old dagger...at level 1. And a tiny bit at level 2. It's much worse than the old dagger at level 3 and 4.
So the new dagger is better than the old one in the very early game, which is pretty much irrelevant on a safe lane carry, but can be very relevant on an offlaner because it prevents him from getting zoned out.




To be perfectly honest, it's more like Icefrog wants people to play PA like that and specifically buffs her so that people go for this build.
The only point of the 6.88 change is buffing this particular build. Which wasn't even good before the change, since the BKB piercing of abyssal is only good if you can jump BKB'd heroes.

Oh so the Dagger did change! Interesting.

Yea, but that's kinda what I said before too, having a feeling that was what PA was going towards. I'm still not sure at all about what she is, offlaner seems interesting but only in a duo offlane, cause as solo just for sapping XP and last hit with Dagger.... Seems underwhelming. Just as Legion Commander, who doesn't work in solo offlanes. A duo offlane with some kill potential is interesting though, as it is to play PA as a highly aggressive hero. But I really don't know.

I would love to see some pro games with her now, see what someone with skill can do with the hero.

Meanwhile btw Lizzard was showing yesterday on his stream how Arc Warden is perfectly viable now with more of an utility build. You guys should take a look at that.

Dagger cooldown is very low so just by sitting back and last hitting with dagger a PA can have 55 CS at 10 minutes. I remember from when I screwed around with offlane PA several months ago.
You can get more farm than your mid hero simply by doing that.



...she does.

Actually that's the best way to play LC. She really needs the solo XP for a fast level 11, wins the lane against pretty much every single dual lane and even does well against most trilanes.



Well yes, go dual offlane with Omniknight, or Lich, or Earth Spirit, or Abaddon or something.
Probably the way I'd play her. She's really outclassed as a safelaner and as a mid, but in dual offlanes she might find her place.
...if she gets another buff.




With what items? And how is utility AW not a weaker version of Tinker?

I mean underwhelming not because of lack of CS, but because of what her weaknesses are (and I'm afraid you can be zoned out easily even of Dagger range, so no XP nor CS eventually). But like I said, maybe it works, I would need to see it and not in pubs, where everything can work.

Which is basically what you're saying about Legion Commander. Ofc in pubs you can offlane her, you can even jungle and get away with it XD in any high level games though you don't get anything from the offlane against a duo or a trilane except death if you're not careful, hence why she isn't played there. But if you get XP somehow that's still a bit better than PA, since Legion's got utility (but you get XP, not a Blink Dagger anytime soon, unless you play kinda like a Slardar and immediately retreat to your jungle camps).

I'm not gonna play her soon and not cause I think she's trash but because I tried in the "smurf" account and I really didn't have that much fun even blowing up everyone, and that's what drives me ahah so I expect you guys to do the experiments for me and come back with the results. I'm still having a blast learning how to play Slark intermediated with supporting, so I will keep at that.

Hmm, I'm not completely sure about all the Arc Warden items, but I know I saw a Hand of Midas, a Blink Dagger and a Mjollnir at least, besides Boots of Travel. Thing is, Tinker can't be at two places at the same time, he's still just one with refresh, so he's susceptible to disables etc. right? A teamfighting utility Arc Warden has very strong spells to fight, and he can make use of them all in duplicate - for instance you're using your copy in the front of the battle while using your real hero in the back to take out the supports. So basically very similar to Tinker indeed but still different - and Tinker can only push creep waves and fight, while AW does that and he pushes the towers themselves with minions, his spell, a Deso, whatever.

For people that are good at micro seemed pretty strong, and way better to everyone than the old cheese. But I don't know, you need to experiment on the right build, and I think you still need to go mid with the hero. Seemed interesting and worth a try though.

Oh yea, and I mean utilty in more like the role he was having in the game, since he said himself he didn't have damage. More like setting up for other people or something of the kind. Maybe utility isn't the right word xD

You do, and she *is* played there. It's literally the only role she's ever had in competitive. Please stop with the nonsense.
You're talking about high level games but I am honestly wondering if you've ever seen a high level game with a LC in it...
Look up dotabuff, filter for very high skill, look up LC. There. This shall fix it.




I looked it up, Hand of Midas, Blink Dagger, Mjollnir, Scythe of Vyse

Pretty much right-click items with double sheep. It's not really a utility build, the only utility item is sheep (is there even another viable utility item on AW after the nerf?). I'm not seeing any cheesy Pipe of Insight, Ethereal Blade, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Heaven's Halberd or other weird possible stuff you could do with the hero there.

That's how I would have played him too, however I still don't think it's that good.

And seriously it's literally Tinker's item build. BoTs into blink into sheep? Seriously I'd just play Tinker at that point :)

Since the nerf AW can't push any more than Tinker can. Necronomicon AW is hardly even viable now, and if you build a sheep you have no more tower damage than Tinker has. Sure in the late game when you have 3 damage items, but then I saw no game that went that far on the stream.

Right-click items + sheep would be a good build but Icefrog needs to buff his AGI gain or even his BAT if he wants it to be viable. AW's right clicks are just not very good because of garbage stats. Before he had rapiers to get good right click, now he no longer has anything.

I saw a lot of LC in high leveled games, yes (I'm referrring to pro/competitive only though, I don't watch much streams of high mmrs). I even saw support Legion there sometimes. I don't take back what I said, and you see, since she was even played as a support and I'm pretty sure about that because I saw it myself, no, offlane is not "literally the only role she's ever had in competitive". Unless you're saying I'm either crazy or lying, but I'm pretty sure other people here saw the same as I did so that shoud "fix it" for you too :P

Regarding the utility, I did explain what I meant by it expecting a comment of that sort didn't I? Utility in the way you play him, not necessarily the item build. And the fact that you have the same item build that some other hero doesn't mean they are the same, fullfill the same purpose, one is always better than the other, etc. But whatever, debating this further won't make much difference probably xD just said here you should give a look, people like to complain a hero is trash without actually trying it and I saw it work, so might as well tell you.

A real question though: why isn't Necronomicon legit on him now? I thought it still was, see no reason why it shouldn't be. But maybe some obscure change in something that I missed?

So let me get this straight : you acknowledge yourself that you don't understand why Necronomicon AW is much worse than it used to be because of the nerf, so you ask me to explain the basic mechanics of the hero because you don't understand how his ultimate works, and you've clearly never bought a necrobook on AW otherwise you'd know the answer...

...and yet you still go implying



that essentially I'm saying that the hero is trash without knowing what I'm talking about because I've never actually tried it out myself.

...when you acknowledged yourself that you don't even understand how his ultimate works and how it was nerfed, which is the very reason why everyone thinks he's garbage now. Something you should know because if you didn't understand why people said AW is garbage, you could just have asked "why do you think that"...instead of trying to prove them wrong without even listening to their arguments.

...and when you really sound like someone who's never played that hero and doesn't even understand how he works.

I mean, seriously?


6.87
Tempest Double
- No longer summons a new double with each cast. It now re-summons the same double.
- Ability and item cooldowns no longer reset on the double on each recast.

Which is a massive nerf to Necronomicon, Hand of Midas, and more importantly Boots of Travel on that hero (among others like BKB, manta, and octarine/refresher indirectly because of the former). Which is what killed him along with the rapier nerf and the Magnetic Field nerf.

You really are a special snowflake during discussions, aren't you xD

1. Of course I don't know how the hero works perfectly, and I never said I did, and that's because a) I never played him outside of bots once; b) I saw him played rarely, and on low quality pubs mostly. So if I "really sound like someone who's never played that hero and doesn't even understand how he works" for the most part you're right, I barely know anything besides what his skills do. Which still doesn't mean my question was as ******ed as you make it sound, you didn't give yourself the trouble to assume I knew what I was saying and what I was asking before jumping into a convenient conclusion. See point 4 to understand that then.

2. I say "people like to complain a hero is trash without actually trying it and I saw it work" because I've been in this site for almost 2 years now watching a lot of people (including you) do this time and time again, either saying something is completely trash or saying it's completely OP because they are prejudiced, withouth trying or seeing good quality level games trying it. And also without aknowledging after that they were wrong. Which as you can imagine, can come out as a bit arrogant and make me doubt people's first impressions on patches and the like.

3. The fact that everybody thinks Arc Warden is trash now is in part because everybody (that is complaining) thought the hero was supposed to function around the cooldown reset. With that gone, everybody cried, and no one in this site for instance said "let's try this instead", despite the hero changes in the last patches to try to make it viable outside of the let-your-hero-on-fountain-with-rapier cheese. So everybody looking into the future of the hero more than the past deserved my attention, since as you well know I like all heroes to be viable, if they make for interesting plays (which, for me and for a big chunk of people, the Rapier possibility wasn't). I saw the hero function perfectly well on a game by a guy I know has certain qualities playing, so I know that's a possibility, so I brought it up.

4. Finally: I do know that the cooldowns no longer rest on the double, and I still asked why it isn't good because you do build Necro in other heroes that don't have refrehed cooldowns, and like I just told you and you said yourself you would still buy Hand of Midas and Boots of Travel on him now despite the change. So, and bare with me here please, I am asking because I see Necronomicon still being viable on the hero since you can still use it to push with only the main hero or the double, besides the use it has on teamfights. This means that, despite the fact that you can't have double Necro now, I still see no reason why it isn't a viable item pick-up on the hero. I never said anything about it being worse, I just asked "why not, is there something else that makes it a no-no choice?". And that's what and why I asked, because I actually would like to hear some valid reason from someone who plays the hero or has tried it.

If you don't understand this part tell me and I will rephrase it until you understand.

Also, if you haven't tried it after the change you can just say so, if you have but you didn't like it for your own reasons you can also say so, what I don't respect intelectually is you saying "it doesn't work because the patch changed this", because that's not enough, IMO.

If from now on you would assume I do read some stuff and think before mindlessly asking some opinion or fact you would save me giant walls of text btw XD