1 Position Venge

I was watching a few "smaller" NA tournaments over the weekend and one, Elite Wolves are looking REALLY good #SmAsHEsMiPastor and continuing on the topic of Elite Wolves, they ran quite a bit of 1-position Vengeful Spirit. I've been noticing quite a bit of this "carry" venge as of late and most of what I've seen has been kind of.... meh. It always seems as though either one, the Vengeful Spirit gets shutdown hard in the early game or in the cases she manages to get some amount of farm she just doesn't have the impact you'd expect from a farmed hero.

And it isn't just some peruvian team trying 1-position Vengeful Spirit, Virtus.Pro did it at the Frankfurt Major and I've seen a few streams where this new way of playing Venge is starting to pop up.

So, is this carry Vengeful Spirit truly viable? Or have teams simply been winning in spite of it and not because of it? If so, what's the item build I should go for when doing this? The only thing I assume is that you'd want to end the game relatively early since it feels like she'd fall off pretty quickly and it seems she's easy enough to kite (subpar attack range, Magic Missile's range is equally underwhelming).

So, enlighten me on the ways of the carry Venge.

Hard Evidence of Pros embracing the 1-position Vengeful Spirit:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1945112557 (Illidan at Frankfurt Major)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1932770748 (Illidan also! Have the Russians discovered the key?)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2119630852 (Iwo at BTS America)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2118895226 (Rox at ProDota Cup)

If you want a carry with a stun, pick Chaos Knight. You've got to win early with a Veng carry, she offers very little except a good stat gain as #1.

Venge's thing is that she activates early.
Very early.
and it won't take long for her to take over your home.
Very home.

She is deadly in early pushes with her aura and aoe armor recuction. That's why she's a thing. She pushes with her team and gives them all damage, and a well time drums/sny will let her be pretty dangerous. She's also one of the only ranged "carries" with a reliable low cooldown stun (Wind is not a carry, she's a physical burst hero, and morphling is morphling), which lets her kill people pretty easily.

But no, she needs good laning, she needs a lead, its like running a safelane Leshrac or Pugna, that secured farmed can mean a lot, but it you don't take over the game, you're in a bit of trouble, since that Anti-Mage is gonna beat you to death.

Plus, being able to play pos 1-5 is pretty nice, lets her get picked for whatever situation.

Her aura is almost worthless with the kind of team you need to get stuff done in this time frame (they only get a bonus on their stat/base damage). A team capable of taking objectives at this stage is going to be heavy on magic damage, not right click. The armour reduction is more useful...but wouldn't you rather have a Shadow Fiend or Slardar for this situation?



This. The only reason she should ever end up as your #1 is because the rest of the picks turned out this way, and she was left as the most suitable candidate. I'd still call this a drafting problem rather than a genuine strategy however.

I also watched some games with the carry Venge and thought about it and my opinion can be summed up by your own words: "teams simply been winning in spite of it and not because of it". She is one of the heroes which wasn't made to carry at all, because her abilities were made for her to be sacrificed, and a farmed carry Venge seems to have the same impact or even less than a support not farmed one.

I'm specially against the most usual Helm of the Dominator build, since it doesn't help her survive more nor brings anything to the table really (stacks aren't worth it also).

If you absolutely must carry, then I think Bunkan's idea of items is the best one, something along the lines of Ring of Aquila, Yasha, Blink Dagger/ Desolator, Vlads somewhere maybe. And still do the "pushtodeath" strat, because otherwise you will still lose.

I actually liked to play vengefull spirit as a solo mid. You do a ****load of rightclick damage with your aura and the stun is also a good nuke. I did variable itembuilds but often I buyed a Yasha to snowball during the midgame.