Windranger deserve nerf?

you really need to learn the proper definition of OP......
its not what you find annoying.
shadow fiend is more successful everywhere then windranger. shadow fiend is also much more of a top tier pick then wind in pro games, which happens to be the thing that dota is balanced about, not 9K reddit MMR people that complain about stuff that they think is annoying.

edit: yes she is strong. but she doesnt need ridiculous nerfs.
if she doesnt get changed or only gets this small nerf and becomes less popular in pro games her popularity in pubs will also drop and people will start whining. so i hope she doesnt get the storm treatment where she gets overnerfed.

The definition of OP is "overpowered" lmao. And I didn't say she is just annoying, she is vastly overpowered as well. I don't hope she gets Storm treatment too but she surely needs more than a slight nerf.

Edit: Also Sf's greater success in pro scene does not contradict with he fact he is balanced rather than overpowered, unlike WR. There are a lot of WR counters that are in pro meta too which makes her less of a problem there. And I don't think Dota has to be balanced around competitive scene because pros and semi-pros are 0.01% of the community at best.

What Tim means is that you need something more than "I see her too much and she kills me too easily" to say that a hero is OP, namely numbers that back up your claim.

Can we agree, for instance, that a hero is only OP if its winrate is over 50% and it has around a 70% pick rate (in pubs), for instance, since you don't want to base it in the pro scene? Let's look at Windranger then, whose numbers are all in that article I posted:





"- Across 309 professional games for 6.85, Windranger has a 43.7% win rate
- During the LAN finals of the Frankfurt Major, her win rate was 31.25%, and she was the 14th most contested hero.
- Across all skill rackets for pubs, her win rate is 49.48%
- She has the highest pub win rate in the 2k bracket, at 49.79%
- Her lowest pub win rate is in the 5k+ bracket, at 45.77%"

This is hardly overpowered, specially when you consider that her winrate is absolutelly medium - she wins as much as she loses. Also, the higher the skill bracket, the more she loses.

If you want to contest this saying that OP means something else, that is also an interesting discussion, but a different one - you may say that you think you see her too much in your games because she is picked 40% of times, you can also say you think she's boring so you want to see her being less picked, but none of this is synonims of being OP.

I have already said why I think she is OP, it must be somewhere in the beginning of this thread, or mb somewhere else. But okay, I can repeat myself. In short, she is very good at too many things and she has a huge impact/farm ratio midgame - much bigger than any popular mid hero right now.

I'd attribute low winrate to a huge amount of scrublords picking her because of her power, and since every hero, regardless of reliability of stuns, micro, etc. requires a little brain to be played properly which they don't have.

Also, I'm sure this will be brought up in the next post, so I'll jsut answer this beforehand:
SF is too very popular but he has 50%+ winrate because he has a lot wider timing window(basically the whole game, kek) and doesn't even actually force you to do anything besides spamming razes in most games so he is much easier to play with your brain off(excluding the tryhard 3-man ganks stuff, but supports often wipe SF's *** enough him to not get completely rekt(and even if he gets, go jungle, press 3 buttons, take stacks and it's like you didn't die 3 times at all).

then how do you even determine what is overpowered? OH WR HAS OP SPELLS PLZ NERF?
no, she doesnt win too much games and one of the more popular heroes in all skill levels.
shadow fiend is picked more and wins too much of those games. therefore he is OP.
the only flaw with wind now is that shes really one dimensional, so she can suddenly kill heroes from very high HP yet still not win the game with that. which she doesnt cause she doesnt have a good avarage winrate anywhere.
really your wind vs SF comment doesnt make any sense. the only things you said where that he doesnt have OP items???? and that wind is BS. which is your emotional I GET ANNOYED BY THIS HERO reaction again.

Dimony did say what for him makes her OP now though: "she is very good at too many things and she has a huge impact/farm ratio midgame". So if this happens with a hero, that means it his OP in his opinion - I don't agree, but I can understand it.

On to it, though, being too good at too many things, I don't know what you mean: she can't be a support right now, and even as an offlaner she doesn't get much beside XP (and she can't flashfarm, as we all know, nor can she spend all her mana on powershots - bye escape).

If you're not talking about roles - what are you talking about exactly? She's still mostly a one man killer, even if she schakles other two (disables) and powershots a teamfight (nuke). Again, she has weaknesses that were all listed in this thread at some point, that just mean you can kill her during all stages of the game with proper set up, you can BKB and bye shackles (that so OP spell becomes useless). So the "huge impact/farm ration midgame" only happen if she's ahead or if she isn't contested - which you can mitigate. She also needs at least three items to be effective in teamfights for more than kill one hero (Aghs, Blink, BKB).

Have you ever played a Windranger from behind? Because the whole "she can kill me with only two items in her inventory" - if I'm a Crystal Maiden I can kill you too with two items in my inventory, it's that simple. She does that, and then what? Ulti on cooldown (although it's very low), no mana, no escape, squishiness. And as we saw clearly, she doesn't win games.

There isn't much left besides "I see her too much and even people I think are ******ed have success with the hero" - which, as we saw with the numbers, is not true (even the game you posted on your rant was a lost game to the Wind, btw). There are ******ed people everywhere, playing all heroes - that doesn't make the hero OP.

Why do you define overpowered heroes by how popular they are and their winrate? The only definition of hero being OP is, you guessed it, having OP spells because for a large part heroes consist of their spells.

My "no OP item" comment was about SF vs Storm comparison and has nothing to do with SF's "OPness" itself.

I didn't even write anything ion caps during my argument, on contrary to you so I guess it's you the one who needs to chill, bury emotions and among everything else, stop picking on my previous, unrelated to argument of WR being OP, posts trying to "disprove" things I didn't even say in the first place.

Ciao.

But in that case how do you know some hero has OP spells - because "people" (undetermined) complain about it?

I think a thread about "What it means to be OP" would be relevant at this point, beyong the whole Wind subject. There are clearly very different opinions about it.

well i guess Song of the Siren and Natural Order must be nerfed then, those spells are way too OP.
you see, you nerf heroes that get picked the most and win a lot so those heroes are no longer stronger then the others. how do you see if a hero is too strong? he wins games for the team. wind doesnt.

ok i read that wrong, i thought you said SF doesnt use an 'OP' item.

but i like caps, easily highlights some parts.
what im a trying to disprove? im just saying that its ridiculous to say: X hero is not OP, and then list all sorts of things that make him good.
its not about looking at spells in a vacuum, its about the entire hero.

Locked.