Playing against sniper.

Well Slardar and Void are the very definition of carries without damage steroids so...sure?
Void has no damage but insane lockdown...and Slardar is really, really limited as a carry by his lack of damage. And even then Slardar has his ult, which is a steroid.

Also...

Sniper : 36‒42 base damage
Void : 60‒66 base damage
Slardar : 51‒59 base damage

So that's not even true when you take base damage into account.

No mention of Meepo? Just buy blink, net him and poof, dead Sniper.

Meepo counters every hero in the game just by being OP :D

But the 1 v 1 mid matchup is actually not very good for Meepo. He needs a lot of farm (blink + Aghs) to start owning Sniper, and he can't really kill him over and over in the early game like a Queen of Pain or Templar Assassin can.

So you have to safe lane your Meepo, which is fine, but then Phantom Assassin/ Clinkz/ Chaos Knight and friends (essentially any snowballing carry with good mobility) seem better in the safe lane because they can start hunting him down earlier. Maapo kind of has to AFK farm his blink-Aghs before being relevant.

He's fine as a counter, but there are far better options if you hate Sniper than to become the best rat pack player in the world overnight :)

Hamster your statements about competitive Snipers are kinda exaggerations. He does not require two supports sitting near by at all times to not get ganked, hell even the Earthshaker/ Sniper mid is less common now. If Sniper required two support sitting on him to survive early-game, he'd be a trash hero. He's entirely capable of being in his lane 1 on 1 as I'm sure you are awear, and it is not as easy as saying 'Gank him X number of times in the early game and he's useless' because it's ignore the fact two other lanes exist, and that people are capable of playing cautiously to escape and prevent ganks.

It's clear you still don't think especially highly of Sniper despite his changes (And that's fine, you know I personally don't agree that he's trash anymore, but whatever), but he has a 56.6% competitive win-rate this patch, out of 477 games. (As a reference, Troll Warlord has a win-rate of 51.3% out of 667 games) You don't get that win-rate across that many games by being a bad hero, nor because you never get counter-picked. Or being a hero that any form of Blink Dagger jump on forces out, he is not like Drow Ranger, he does not lose damage just because a hero is within meele range of him. If a hero is in meele range with him, and either can't solo him, or disable him, then that hero dies. With Drow, being in that range is a huge advantage either way. Likewise, he does not stay super squishy or super immobile all game, given he commonly builds SnY, BKB and Skadi... He can kite well, and is somewhat tanky as a result of his item builds, like all cores in the game atm it seems.

And him being able to defend high-ground well is incredibly relevent this patch, where one of the issues is pushing high ground is hard. If you try to push high-ground, and get repulsed, and start losing heroes, then suddenly the comeback mechanic kicks in, and you start earning more money as a result, and you stop being as behind. There's an 180 minute game this patch that testifies how relevent being able to prolong high-ground pushes is.

And you say Sniper is a poor man-fighter - Yeah, he is, because as you said none of his abilities are a damage steroid, or scale especially well save for Take Aim. But not all carry's are meant to be man-fighters, he's happy to just sit back and go 'pew, pew' whilst the rest of your team gets focused, and occupies attention. Because DOTA is afterall a team-game, which means funnily enough there's 4 other people on your team who can do stuff whilst people are trying to jump you.

Also whilst I know it was kind of jokingly, almost every in the game dies in a few seconds to a Troll that blinks in and bashes them. It's not something unique to Sniper

Now naturally you are going to disagree here, and list why you think Sniper is really bad as counter arguments to mine (Listing heroes he 'loses' in lane to like QoP, Storm and Lina, due to them having kill potential at level 6, laning is a lot more than just level 6, and Sniper's pre 6 is crazy strong. How certain initiators like SB and Clockwork can still make his life hell ect), and I'll respond in kind ect ect ect. And we continue in a circle till a mod yells at us to quit.

Or we just skip that, agree that we disagree on this hero. And not waste a good hour or two of our lives.

And I'll finish my thoughts by saying; Yeah, you can counter pick Sniper. There's a lot of heroes that do counter him seemingly on paper, but there's nowhere near as many that do it as well in practice. (Otherwise the hero wouldn't have the competitive win-rate that he does). In low level games, like this guy seems to be asking about, gap closing iniator's and good luck is generally the best things. Oh and supports like Lion. Seriously, Lion can make Sniper his ***** if the enemy team isn't co-ordinated.

You know if there is a debate on sniper, and if it is constructive enough, i don't think any mod will have an issue Sanvitch.


Moreover, even pros admit that they haven't figured out where sniper lies at the moment. They haven't figured his changes and causal effects out. Anything unseen or unknown naturally becomes an advantage.

I personally think that sniper does have a comeback potential fromputting up a good base defense but you can't expect him to win if the enemy had harder carry late game;since his defense inevitably pushes the game late.

You know, his headshot indeed is bad right now, it is mostly annoying only in early game where he gets an advantage because of very good lane presence now because of shrapnel.

Given these changes he is highly probable to acquire an early game advantage and farm heroes. Taking this in mind that all cores this meta build tanky, any half decent sniper sits back and let the team tank for him while he takes good pot shots from the back and slows them with ho ho ha ha.

Coming to my point, i want to harmonize both of you because I see both of you have some points that you have common. It is only the result you differ on.

You both say he can def for 25 mins even of hes behind. Hamster says enemy will break base and you give the argument of comeback mechanics. That is it! Isnt it?
It all depends on how enemy plays it out and whther they have a harder carry on their hands that can get that dwarf sscream likea puppy. If they do, they break base. If they dont well you know waht happens then. He shoots he scars.

His steroid is not so easily quantifiable as hamster thinks. Bro, everything is not damage. Sometimes positioning is also a steroid and sniper has it a plenty. Talk about walking 950 range to get to him while he slows you skadis you and kills you. Its even more helples than being stunned. And i am not even considering 4v4 interventions.

While sanvitch you should recognize that, sniper as a carry has limited potential against various heroes that are in meta. If pros cant do it, doesnt mean no one can. If they cant put heros into practice, something is wrong with them and not heroes. This kind of thing by pros had fountain hooking patched(a thing of pure skill and coordination. And i think many pros would agree with me. You see already many hero counters liated here and executed well they have good mechanics to deal with him and a better late game scaling.