Ask me some Chen questions please! :D

Hi,

I'm not sure if this is against the forum rules, so feel free to lock or move as necessary if it is (And I apologize, if it is).

I just played a Chen game, and someone asked me a few questions about Chen that I had never considered answering in my Chen guide. So I guess I'm looking for people whom are interested in the hero, but haven't figured out certain aspects or timings with him.

I think my guide is lacking certain answers to questions that new players may have, but I don't know what those questions are, so I can't answer them.

So... As a player who wants to play Chen, but doesn't... What questions do you have about the hero? Or why do you not play the hero more often/at all? I'm just looking for some inspiration for a new Q&A section in the guide.

Thanks for your time,

Angelo

why should i play Chen over Enchantress, who has arguably a better early game with 2 creeps from the beginning ?

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1298698401

my one and only chen game ....


seriously


how the FU******** do u play chen!

>relax, you are doing fine.

Hey Kodyababa. We haven't played together in a while. I hope you're doing well!

That's a great question. I really enjoy both heroes very much, but they play very differently.

You're 100% correct. Enchantresses early game is MUCH MUCH MUCH more aggressive than Chen's and she can snowball out of control very quickly comparatively. Because of her activity when it comes to ganking/roaming she is a natural urn carrier, where Chen players usually opt for a Mek.

In terms of creeps, Enchantress can grab creeps and just treat them carelessly. She can send them middle, get a new creep, and farm with it. Chen can't do that because of the high mana cost and cooldown of persuasion, along with a low creep limit at level. He must stack at level 1 if he wishes to help his mid.

Also, as you said: At level one Enchantress can convert two creeps, smoke, and SLOW the middle into a dual stomp, or net/stomp, etc etc... Slow into two creeps at level 1? That's insane.

All of this makes Chen sound like trash compared to Enchantress. So to your question: Why Chen over Enchantress?

Imagine both heroes snowballing... As the game goes on if Chen is left unchecked he will develop into a much larger snowball. Although enchantress can potentially gain momentum faster, while Chen is slower... Chen can become a bigger threat than enchantress if left alone.

Chen has more control over a team fight. He can have a tornado, two nets, and a stomp... and he doesn't need to time anything. Mid game, Enchantress is losing creeps every few minutes, so she has a small window of opportunity to have the same team fight impact that a Chen has. Also, when Chen has 4 creeps up, he can farm anything very quickly with little/no impact on his mana. Meanwhile Enchantress needs to constantly spend mana on new creeps. This gives you additional mana for team fights, if one breaks out.

Chen is also free to split push with his new creeps, which Enchantress cannot do. She also lacks the ability to teleport her creeps to her, which was one of Chen's largest weaknesses before this big change (Lack of mobility, and lack of split push)

Chen with an army of buffs (IAS, Armor, Crit, frost armor) can solo rosh relatively early with a smoke. This is something no other support can do. Although Enchantress can max untouchable and slow Rosh, it weakens her other skills, so most don't max untouchable early. Plus her DPS is nothing like Chens versus Rosh.

Chen can also control ancients now, which is very powerful late game. Combined with such a low CD global heal (If you obtain aghs), he is a position independent split pusher and healer.

Chens creeps also benefit from additional HP, where Enchantresses creeps do not. This means that with an armor aura, it goes much farther with 4 of chens creeps and a Mek buff, than 4 of Enchantresses creeps with an urn.

I would say that lack of slow at any level (And no way to close distance without help, minus a dark troll summoner) makes Chen a much weaker ganker at early levels. Enchantress is definitely more of an early ganker, and late game DPS. Chen is more of a mid game pusher, and late game healer/sustainer (Prolonging team fights, and saving allies with ToF). They serve different roles, but they are both very fun jungling supports that take a lot of skill to play.

(I'm going to copy/paste something very similar to this in my guide once I get a few questions. Thanks for the question Kodyababa. Hopefully it helped you out)

Thank you for you very convincing answer :D

DO MINE!!!

0-10 minutes i was so bad

10-60 i was ok

60-90 i was so bad :(

whyyyy ? :(

Sure. I've got some spare time today ^_^. I'm downloading the replay right now. Gimme a bit and I can offer some advice my good sir.

yeeeewwwww :D

You max penitence and persuasion for your skill build. I think that maxing test of faith and persuasion is stronger. This is because nukes with a set amount of damage are strongest early game when numbers (Like life and armor) are lowest. Where they are weaker late game when health and magic resistance are at their highest.

You gank at 4 minutes with a DTS and Satyr. *Your micro was great!* I just personally would have not ganked with a saytr. What really completes a gank are stuns and slows, not damage (Especially against an ember with flame guard). Your saytr didn't contribute anything because flameguard blocked the damage. I would have kept farming with your DTS... Your next creep was a strawberry (Red ursa) which has a slow. Now you have a stun and a slow. Imagine doing this:

Net ember, W with Chen (nuke), right click with creeps, right click with chen, manually control strawberry and slow. Now just micro the bear and block ember with it. Your hero and creeps are queued to keep attacking, meanwhile you're bodyblocking with a creep for more right clicks. That's a great way to micro your creeps during middle ganks.

At 5:00 you go top and lane with Tiny. This is unnecessary. You're now dual laning, and the jungle is free solo EXP that is not being utilized. You should not gank top in this situation, and here is why: It's a solo PL versus techies and Tiny. A solo PL will not have either hero low, so you know you're walking into a gank with 2 full HP heroes... One of which can suicide on you guys. Chen is ALL about predicting fights, and using foresight to make decisions. So you're in the jungle, and you decide to go top. I haven't even watched the replay and this is what I see happening (It's paused): You'll soak up PLs solo EXP, and ruin your own solo EXP by leaving the jungle. You will not damage the tower, at least not enough to warrant you leaving the jungle. Chen needs a fast 6/7. That's where he takes off. His ganks before that need to be PERFECT or it slows him down significantly. You need to be a BIT more selfish with your Chen support. You are a GREEDY support. You need levels, items, and gold. Sorry PL, but you're going to have to wait before Chen can help you out. :'(

Another thing I'd like to point out is that at 10:00, you're in your fountain microing your centaur in middle. Even though this isn't optimal (You'll want to be doing other things in the jungle with chen while microing) this is how you need to micro in team fights. Keep your hero back and just focus on your creeps. At 10:00 you were 1-0 on Chen... That's pretty impressive, as he is very hard to keep track of in team fights. So kudos to you for that. Just plant Chen at a tower or something and take care of your creep micro. After you've got it all figured out, walk Chen in and focus on him only. That's the easiest way to slowly ease into playing Chen, in my opinion. So keep doing that, great job. Eventually you will be able to micro Chen and creeps in a team fight. Maybe even a necronomicon too. :D

At about 12:00 I have some positive feedback, but also constructive criticism. First of all, you finished your mek. That's a great mek time. When you have mek and ult up, you need to fight to use them, win a fight, and take 1-2 towers. That's EXACTLY what you did. You took middle, then TPed top and ported your creeps. Friggin'. Pro. That's timing. That's nailing your window of opportunity with Chen.

Some constructive criticism: You used Mek at 12:57 for no reason. You healed up one creep, and that was about it. You need to save your Mek for emergencies. It's not a "free heal" for a creep. Your creeps are literally... 100%... In every way... There to die for your push. You can't take too much care of them. They are very beefy and difficult to kill. If your opponents are killing them, micro them away but don't mek to save one, and rarely should you send on home with E. Just let your creeps die for the push. Save your mek for teammates and yourself. Same with your ult. Use it to save heroes only... Unless you have aghs and 3 ancients... Then you can use ult depending on the circumstances to heal them back up for a push.

2-0 at 14:00? What a player.

5-0 at 24:00? What a player.

Here's the thing though... You aren't snowballing hard enough. You're doing well (And hey, that was a GREAT kill on the techies right before 24:00. Again, you just sat your hero at the tower and microed your creeps. Chen is completely save, and you still get kills. Really well done dude!) You rushed a vlads instead of getting arcanes... So you need to rosh with that. Vlads is made to kill rosh, and engage in long long long team fights. You're doing well, but the rest of your team is NOT doing well. So a rosh can fix that. Everyone gets gold, exp, and someone gets an aegis. You win a team fight with that aegis, which means more towers, gold, exp, and map control. Now you snow ball. Right now you're fighting, barely winning, and farming again since your team wiped. You don't have a lot of time left before Chen becomes worthless. You need to end soon, and you've barely touched their T2 towers. You need to turn these kills into towers, map control, and rosh. It's 30 minutes in. Time to end.

So, I'm at 43 minutes and here's the thing... Their team is CK, Tiny, LC, Ember, Techies (4 very strong cores). Your line up is Chen, Invoker, PL, Venge, WW (Two very strong cores). this game needed to end a long time ago. I don't see you guys coming back in team fights, but your Chen play was EXCEPTIONAL!

Let me just offer a few pieces of advice:

Get a rosh around the time you get your mek and fight at a tower. Mek, ult, and aegis means a free team fight. If you wipe them, it's two towers 15 minutes into the game (A t2 at that point is very very very strong). Try to get rax by 30 or so, depending on your line up. Also, rush a gem against techies and put in on PL or something (Since his illusions gain it) or Invoker (For ghost walk scouting). Once you establish map control against that many cores, jungle aggressively and take their gold/exp from them. Make them keep 2-3 in a lane and never gain access to their jungle. Farmed supports > Unfarmed cores. Chen just can't compete with a late game line up for such a long time. Better luck next game my friend. gl hf