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Non-Pro Picks?

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Forum » Theory Crafting » Non-Pro Picks? 33 posts - page 3 of 4
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by sulaxrox » April 7, 2014 4:15am | Report
To point out: kotl and undying both saw pro play this month, just not frequently. Kotl was only top tier because of how strong PL was and chakra magic giving the lancer infinite harass. Undying just doesn't fit anywhere and is a major liability late game, he can crush the early to mid game but if you lose that advantage you're boned, hell get blown up before the team makes use of his aura.
Step 1: Pick Bristleback
Step 2: type in all chat:"GL hf"
Step 3: solo offlane
Step 4: first blood triple kill solo vs trilane
Step 5: continue head butting keyboard
Step 6: don't care, Bristleback doesn't give a ****
Step 7: screenshot repeated: BB OP comments in all chat
Step 8: alternate games with Slark pick

sulaxrox


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by manic_e » April 13, 2014 10:23am | Report
A few months ago the same would have been said of axe, that he's a major liability in the late game. Now he's not a surprise pick up at all. He's played in a variety of positions semi regularly. The pro meta at the moment is heavily trend dependent. With a couple of heroes Ember and Invoker who are imba, and only a few heroes who just don't work at all and need major buffs or a complete rework. I don't think undying is one who needs major changes. A couple of good high profile games could make him a regular pick. With that said he could probably do with a bit of a buff next patch. But nothing major is needed. Just because pro's aren't currently picking a hero in a position doesn't mean that hero can't work at all in the pro scene.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » April 13, 2014 10:40am | Report
Axe is getting picked to counter lycan.
His minions proc more counter's, he can disable him through BKB with call, and beats him HARD in lane.
Go farm in the safelane RTZ :P

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by sulaxrox » April 14, 2014 5:48am | Report
I still wouldn't say Invoker is imba, very strong but very beatable. Ember is a bit too strong, Sleight of Fist has too low a Cd, especially with crits up, he just destroys heroes. The biggest problem is Lycan right now, with Ancient Apparition he spits out an insane amount of damage, watched silent playing him a few days ago with treads-vlads-Necro 3 in 15min.. Howl + Chilling Touch = murder, than several dead towers.
Axe may be picked to counter Lycan, but I haven't seen it all starladder 9, in d2cl a few times but not that prevalent, since Lycan is generally insta banned, but spin procs or not, the damage is too much, Shadow Shaman and Bane do a damn good job mitigating his damage though.
Fnatic busting out Meepo a few times in SL9 was pretty amazing though 👍
Step 1: Pick Bristleback
Step 2: type in all chat:"GL hf"
Step 3: solo offlane
Step 4: first blood triple kill solo vs trilane
Step 5: continue head butting keyboard
Step 6: don't care, Bristleback doesn't give a ****
Step 7: screenshot repeated: BB OP comments in all chat
Step 8: alternate games with Slark pick

sulaxrox


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Posts: 400
Steam: sulaxrox
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » April 14, 2014 6:15am | Report
sulaxrox wrote:

I still wouldn't say Invoker is imba, very strong but very beatable. Ember is a bit too strong, Sleight of Fist has too low a Cd, especially with crits up, he just destroys heroes. The biggest problem is Lycan right now, with Ancient Apparition he spits out an insane amount of damage, watched silent playing him a few days ago with treads-vlads-Necro 3 in 15min.. Howl + Chilling Touch = murder, than several dead towers.
Axe may be picked to counter Lycan, but I haven't seen it all starladder 9, in d2cl a few times but not that prevalent, since Lycan is generally insta banned, but spin procs or not, the damage is too much, Shadow Shaman and Bane do a damn good job mitigating his damage though.
Fnatic busting out Meepo a few times in SL9 was pretty amazing though �

I think that invoker is stronger then ember now, ember is very slippery but has a lot of weaknesses and has a weak point in the game where his magic damage falls off but he doesnt have the big items to crit really hard.
He is also very beatable in lategame by a hard carry, although he is a ***** to push into.

AA might get a small nerf, although it probably wont be his ult getting nerfed, becouse icefrog is really smart in that regard, he almost never nerfs a hero HARD in his strong point.

Lycan will probably get some wolf nerfs, since they are really annoying to deal with, and his professional winrate is absolutely rediculous.

Shadow shaman also has a high winrate, he might get a small nerf.


Meepo was also picked by DK, i think it was yesterday against newbee. Or maybe LGD china.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by manic_e » April 14, 2014 12:33pm | Report
Timminatorr wrote:

Axe is getting picked to counter lycan.
His minions proc more counter's, he can disable him through BKB with call, and beats him HARD in lane.
Go farm in the safelane RTZ :P

Perhaps, but Axe joined the meta far earlier than Lycan. Axe started getting picked soon after 6.79 came in. Alliance especially liked him as a safe lane carry. More lately he is mainly a jungling support and has fallen off a little recently.

Lycan on the other hand is one of the most recent additions especially in the western scene. The Chinese started the current Lycan fad where he was a tier 1 pick while his inclusion in a western team would have been a complete shock. After some success in the Eastern scene Western teams started to pick him up.

It's all about trends. IIRC Lycan hadn't got a massive buff in 6.80 or 6.79. He's just a trendy strat right now due to his pushing ability.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » April 14, 2014 1:37pm | Report
manic_e wrote:


Perhaps, but Axe joined the meta far earlier than Lycan. Axe started getting picked soon after 6.79 came in. Alliance especially liked him as a safe lane carry. More lately he is mainly a jungling support and has fallen off a little recently.

Lycan on the other hand is one of the most recent additions especially in the western scene. The Chinese started the current Lycan fad where he was a tier 1 pick while his inclusion in a western team would have been a complete shock. After some success in the Eastern scene Western teams started to pick him up.

It's all about trends. IIRC Lycan hadn't got a massive buff in 6.80 or 6.79. He's just a trendy strat right now due to his pushing ability.

I dont know why you think axe was picked a lot in 6.79 becouse he was picked only 7 times.
In 6.80 its 58 times, which is just 3,9%.

And lycan got some nice buffs that really made him strong, he got a damage buff that made his laning stronger.
The buff to howl also really adds up with multiple units.
And not to forget the buffs to his wolves, the 80% resistance, high regen and earlier invis made his wolves REALLY durable.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Ancient Hero » April 14, 2014 2:07pm | Report
Morph and spectre have seen some more play lately as well with a semiglobal strat.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by manic_e » April 15, 2014 12:57am | Report
Timminatorr wrote:


I dont know why you think axe was picked a lot in 6.79 becouse he was picked only 7 times.
In 6.80 its 58 times, which is just 3,9%.

And lycan got some nice buffs that really made him strong, he got a damage buff that made his laning stronger.
The buff to howl also really adds up with multiple units.
And not to forget the buffs to his wolves, the 80% resistance, high regen and earlier invis made his wolves REALLY durable.

There's a massive difference between saying axe started getting picked up in 6.79 and "axe was picked up a lot in 6.79" as you thought I said. Axe went from a WTF pick to a highly situational pick, it's not like he was ever getting picked up every game or getting banned out. However you are mistaken in thinking that Axe's viability came after Lycan started getting picked up. Perhaps in the Chinese scene where I don't recall seeing much axe at all while Lycan had already been a tier 1 pick for a while.

Lycan is the perfect example of what was my original point about the pro meta being more based on trends than a few heroes who are better than all the rest as it has been in the past. Lycan wasn't a bad hero when he wasn't getting picked in the western scene but was in the Eastern. It's just that at the time the western teams were going crazy for Luna. Lycan got some high profile games in China the western teams saw the proof of his viability and of building a strat around him and started picking him. But there was an interim period for a while where picking Lycan would have seemed very strange in the West while he was an expected pick in China even though the same hero was available to both.

I don't think Lycan's buffs were massive, although I suppose that's a subjective term. But the meta before 6.79 favoured later game carries with less emphasis on push strats. Which is the reason Lycan was not picked up then.

Undying (I am determined to bring this back to my original point :P) is in a similar situation a few small buffs and a few games where he does well and he could easily become a top pick. The hero isn't bad and in drastic need of fixing. He's just not trendy at the moment. There are heroes which are in need of drastic changes Bloodseeker and Omniknight spring to mind but the number of those heroes are much less than they were before. Now almost anyone is viable, whereas before there were many heroes who were not viable at all.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Timminatorr » April 15, 2014 1:59am | Report
manic_e wrote:


There's a massive difference between saying axe started getting picked up in 6.79 and "axe was picked up a lot in 6.79" as you thought I said. Axe went from a WTF pick to a highly situational pick, it's not like he was ever getting picked up every game or getting banned out. However you are mistaken in thinking that Axe's viability came after Lycan started getting picked up. Perhaps in the Chinese scene where I don't recall seeing much axe at all while Lycan had already been a tier 1 pick for a while.

Lycan is the perfect example of what was my original point about the pro meta being more based on trends than a few heroes who are better than all the rest as it has been in the past. Lycan wasn't a bad hero when he wasn't getting picked in the western scene but was in the Eastern. It's just that at the time the western teams were going crazy for Luna. Lycan got some high profile games in China the western teams saw the proof of his viability and of building a strat around him and started picking him. But there was an interim period for a while where picking Lycan would have seemed very strange in the West while he was an expected pick in China even though the same hero was available to both.

I don't think Lycan's buffs were massive, although I suppose that's a subjective term. But the meta before 6.79 favoured later game carries with less emphasis on push strats. Which is the reason Lycan was not picked up then.

Undying (I am determined to bring this back to my original point :P) is in a similar situation a few small buffs and a few games where he does well and he could easily become a top pick. The hero isn't bad and in drastic need of fixing. He's just not trendy at the moment. There are heroes which are in need of drastic changes Bloodseeker and Omniknight spring to mind but the number of those heroes are much less than they were before. Now almost anyone is viable, whereas before there were many heroes who were not viable at all.

well i wouldnt call getting picked 6 times 'started getting picked up'. in fact he was picked op more % of the time in 6.78 then in 6.79 so your assumption is a bit off.
and lycan was also picked up more then axe since atleast 6.77
so there was really no point where axe 'entered' the meta. and nowadays he is mainly getting picked against either lycan, naga, or lifestealer.

there are really no WTF picks now as pretty much every hero gets picked. but the thing is that those small buffs are needed to make a hero viable in competetive, that small buff can make a hero really strong. ofcourse you can play everything in pubs but in professional matches a small thing can make a massive difference.

i do kind of agree with your main point though, and trends are certainly a thing, but for example undying could suddenly enter the meta if he gets a buff that makes him scale better like a buff to his ultimate, or a strengh bonus that to make him tankier. but currently he is just not strong enough to warrant a pick over a lot of other supports.

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