Sick and Tired of all your people complaining about MMR

I'm going to explain a few things that should clear up the MMR, so stop creating threads and bickering about the MMR system.

From what i've read over the course of 3 days. Majority of you believe you're not in the proper bracket, and that the system is flawed. Now let's break some of these points down.

The MMR system is FLAWED, no rating system is perfect. It is near impossible to created a MMR system based on 5 new individual players each game. If the rating system was based on a single entity winning or losing the game, it would be a lot easier since the only calculation that would be done is the reward and length of game. As we add more entities into the equation it becomes more complex, such as time, hero, number of times played with hero, Kills, Deaths, Assists, Hero Damage, Tower Damage, Denies, Last hits, Your MMR, your ally MMR, Opponent #1 mmr, Opponent #2 MMR, the median of your team MMR, the median of your opponent MMR, the difference between the mmr, how to scale points depending on the gap between MMR, Number of games played, and percentage of wins. So as you can see, just 2 players that want their proper MMR, it's just way too complicated to calculate. Just alone for a 2v2 there are 21 variables that need to be calculated to have a proper distribution of MMR. Imagine what it is like for a 3v3 and 4v4 and 5v5, calculating each individuals rating compared to the rest of the team, the number of variables are endless. No one has the time to create these equations and have it calculate for each individual person. If they did, it would cost valve loads of money since it needs to calculate all 10 players in the match, do hundreds of calculations and reward each individual their proper MMR, it's just way to time consuming and even when it is distributed the MMR distribution cannot be perfect. it is 100% flawed, get that through your thick skull and stop *****ing about it.

Now since there are 10 entities in each game, that means you would have to be paired up with individuals who know how to play almost every single hero efficiently, same number of wins, same percentage, and number of games played with "x" hero played. Now OBVIOUSLY, some of those factors aren't taken into account such as the number of games played with each hero. I guarantee ALL of you are not efficient with all 110 heroes, each and every one of you specialize in a certain role whether it be 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Obviously you can't choose your position until you're in game with the other 4 entities on your team. Now you may get paired with those who would like to ONLY play middle, which many of us have seem and suffered through it all and others will experience it soon. Even if they tried to do something about this, this would create more equations and variables that could possibly crash the servers EVEN MORE, we already know valve has a tendency to crash when servers become overloaded.

Others that compare MMR to those across other servers, are not quite bright as each server has different distribution of players. For example, currently i'm at 3800 rating, that doesn't necessarily mean i am 3800 across all servers. I could be 4500 on EU W and 2000 on EU E. Since each server location has different entities playing on it, the distribution of players are no the same.

Now if you believe you are not where you belong, you should be able to carry your team to victory using formulas that the pros use. Of course you're not guaranteed to win 100% or even 70% of your games but you will win more frequently than usual. If you are not able to do that well then you may possibly belong where you are. If you still don't believe me, using the law of large numbers. The more games you play the more accurate your rating becomes, this also takes into account the other variables that come into play as well. If you don't understand then too bad stop *****ing and moaning and accept the fact that you suck.

Law of large numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers
Purge guide to dota 2: http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-dota-you-suck#.UzCDofldW48

If you think Purge is trash, than what does that make you? you're probably more trash than he is if you have a lower MMR than he is, stop comparing yourself to others, accept the fact that you are where you belong. All the good players are able to carry their team to victory and if you truly believe that you do not belong in your rating. THEN DO IT AND CARRY.

Removed quotes to avoid targeting individual people.

Edit: I was pretty salty writing this

So you are saying that because it may be really hard to make a good ranking system, people shouldnt complain about its flaws? Well, that just sounds counterproductive.

Also, your "theory" that if you are placed in a MMR lower than what you deserve, you should win games, is extremely flawed. I have lost a lot of matches because 1 or 2 players (but lets face it, you only need 1), completely ****ed the match. Also, the system itself leaves little room for improvement of your rank if you solo. It is dificult to increase your MMR significantly, because the system tries to pair teams that have 50% chance of winning. So your MMR fluctuates a lot, but it is hard to leave the same place, more or less. You depend on 4 other players on your team, and you also depend on the 5 players you will be facing. Unless you are a ****ing beast every single game, it is hard to increase your MMR in 1k points, and that is clear.

Personally I don't mind my current MMR (around 4000), but the current system is evaluating players in a wrong way (over and under ranking people). I have friends with the same MMR, where one clearly plays much better than the other. Also, the current system seems to be based on win/loss ratio only, which, if the case, is very basic stuff, leaving the question: why bother implementing it?

The system appears to have many flaws. While it can evaluate some players accurately, it is not evaluating other players the same way. It leaves little room to improve your MMR significantly when soloing. It was said the system would reward you if you played well, even if you lost the match, which no one has evidence of that occuring. No one has explained the mathematical formulas behind it, to make it clear how it works and what factors does it depend on. With all these question in the air, what I ask you is: why the **** shouldnt people be talking about it?

Though i agree with some of your points, like a lot of people overestimating themselves, you defend the MMR system like a valve employee.

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET POINTS WHILE LOSING. Right now the system doesnt do that making it very flawed.
Sure it is hard to programm such a system, but when the only thing it has to do is decide to take/give you 23-27 ratings, so it only has to choose between 5 points, that is not very hard.
We know that valve can do it. They made a similar thing in the form of fantasy points.


Yes, i think the starting MMR is done well, but at the moment the point system borders on lazy.


So -ping i get you, but i why are you defending the system as if you programmed it yourself. (which seems unlikely but if you did plz fix volvo)

I went from 3600 mmr to 2600 , am i suddenly losing my grip? Did i get bitten by the noob bug?

Obviously no, you assume that if you belong in an mmr higher than what it is you are currently at you should be able to CARRY your team to victory like the PROS.

THAT is the flaw in your reasoning. The sole reason for the mmr fall IS infact taking the bullet for the team. In most of my dota 2 time spent playing i have spent more time playing support than playing any other role.

Only a few games have i played in which my team is actually good. Usually i end up being the damage dealer and stereotypical CARRY when in reality i was HARD support from the 1st second of the match, buying wards and courier and smoke and dust and ****.

I die for my carries but all i get in return is some punkass jerk who either feeds, is insanely underfarmed, throws or is just plain old super noob.

The fact is solo que is filled to the brim with people wanting to carry, imagine being the solo support of a team of noobs, playing captains draft where your captain doesnt know what trilane constitutes, when your capt picks a semi support for your safelane when facing a void.

No matter how pro a player is you cannot win if your team sucks and you are the support.

I dont like the jerks who random at the start of timer and get insta counter picked. If you are a sensible player you will wait till the end of timer too access the situation, the hard part is noobs will just pick in the 1st 5 seconds.

Just a recent example of the hardships of being hard support having to do hard carry's work

http://dotabuff.com/matches/577856686
http://dotabuff.com/matches/577774908

Just because the system is flawed ( and will remain that way ) doesnt mean we cant express our discomfort with it.

People seem to be getting quite angry about all this, ultimately MMR is hopefully a way to find good, well balanced games that are fun to play in. As pointed our by numerous players, the system is kinda flawed...as any system is likely to be in a game as complex as DOTA.

Computers (including the matchmaking algorithms Valve use) only have a limited amount of data to make the decisions on, with wait time also being quite a large factor (who wants to wait 20 minutes for a game?). Unfortunately the data provided by DOTA is "dirty", the nature of the game makes it unpredictable and difficult to quantify.

A lot of people would like extra points awarded on the back of "performance"...but what is measurable good performance in DOTA? You could look at kill/death, no of last hits, hero damage, tower damage...all of which can give you some indication of how a player has performed. However, this all goes to pot when you have a game like DOTA, lets look at an example:

Support player A knows that points will be awarded for high kills/gold/xp...so why play support properly? You could ward, buy utility, not take farm, sacrifice yourself for other players...all of these give your team a better chance of winning. On the other hand, kill stealing, taking farm and running at the first sign of trouble will make your stats look better. If stats = mmr points...?

In the same way, good play can go unnoticed by stats..."saves" are harder to record than kills - what about those great plays where you get somebody out of trouble, or turn around a team fight but then die? Very difficult to measure.

Hopefully you can see the problem. The other big issues with good matchmaking are people's favoured roles, heroes and picks. With 5 random players the chances are that you will get clashes with offlaners, mids, supports and carries - too many of any is bad...but a great carry or mid might make a very poor support player. Picks also come into this - teams that might be evenly matched in terms of stats may have bad synergy, co-operation, picks etc.

A certain amount of luck comes into it - which players are online at the time u press go? Can they speak the same language as you, or have just ticked the box to get a game faster? Does your team make good picks? What if somebody randoms? Things like luck will balance themselves over a large enough number of games, and good play will lead to a better chance of winning overall.

Ultimately yes it is worth pointing out the flaws in the system, and hopefully they will be slowly improved upon...but it's really quite difficult to make a system that properly captures the essence of DOTA when most of the players can't even agree on what makes good play, and what doesn't. Win/loss is a cop-out, but it's probably the only way to record success without a lot of additional thought, and potential for exploits.

Personally I'd like to see a mode where you can specify your role pre-game, might make for more balanced teams.

I suppose it sounds counterproductive, but what i'm saying is be aware of how the system works.

We've all had those games numerous times where players just throw the game. I just recently played a game yesterday where a played literally ignored the whole team, instant locked void and fed the opposing team. It's rough, but it's something you just gotta accept because once you're in that game there is no way out until the game is finished. If it tries to pair u with many players with 50%, they also pair you with those who are within the same rating as you, not only the 50%. yeah you do depend on 4 other players but I believe that the first 10 minutes is a do or die, the supports must be rotating and ganking constantly to give the edge on the lane, and anything past 10 minutes is extremely dependent on cohesion.

it may be basic stuff, but there is more to it than that. Since you mentioned that the rating is based of %, which i do agree, it also takes into account Number of games played and your rating.

Well maybe those players are good but they lack cohesion with there team. For example, Seekheart said he went 30-1-x, or something along the line of that, i assume it's with invoker since that seems to be his favourite. He has the ability to play well, but he lacks the cohesion which will keep him in the lower end of the MMR system. DotA is really based on team work rather than individual skill, though individual skill does have an impact on the early stages of the game.

There is a different between evaluating it and complaining about it. Some individuals on this forum constantly complain about their MMR and they keep repeating the same cycle. It's been days, weeks, months and it's exactly the same complaints. No reinforcement on how the individual plays, some evaluation and speculation on how the MMR system works but majority of it is complaints, which is quite frustrating, when there are many of us who participate in forums to form constructive opinions. For instance, i'll use myself. I use this forum to look at any competitive scene, tournaments and broaden my thinking of the game mechanics, and see things at different perspectives since it's hard to see from another perspective until told. I do not come to the forums to read about people complaining. Why do i look at the forums where people complain? i look for constructive replies, which i do see from time to time but alot of it is constant complaints.



Well, technically you do get points, but your losses > winnings by a dramatic amount. Why i defend Valve, maybe i'm just a fan boy. But i give them the benefit of the doubt. I believe they are trying to improve the game and the system, though keep in mind the development team of DotA 2 is pretty small.So why do i defend them? i believe they are trying.



I went from 3600 mmr to 2600 , am i suddenly losing my grip? Did i get bitten by the noob bug?

Obviously no, you assume that if you belong in an mmr higher than what it is you are currently at you should be able to CARRY your team to victory like the PROS.

THAT is the flaw in your reasoning. The sole reason for the mmr fall IS infact taking the bullet for the team. In most of my dota 2 time spent playing i have spent more time playing support than playing any other role.

Only a few games have i played in which my team is actually good. Usually i end up being the damage dealer and stereotypical CARRY when in reality i was HARD support from the 1st second of the match, buying wards and courier and smoke and dust and ****.

I die for my carries but all i get in return is some punkass jerk who either feeds, is insanely underfarmed, throws or is just plain old super noob.

The fact is solo que is filled to the brim with people wanting to carry, imagine being the solo support of a team of noobs, playing captains draft where your captain doesnt know what trilane constitutes, when your capt picks a semi support for your safelane when facing a void.

No matter how pro a player is you cannot win if your team sucks and you are the support.

I dont like the jerks who random at the start of timer and get insta counter picked. If you are a sensible player you will wait till the end of timer too access the situation, the hard part is noobs will just pick in the 1st 5 seconds.

Just a recent example of the hardships of being hard support having to do hard carry's work

http://dotabuff.com/matches/577856686
http://dotabuff.com/matches/577774908

Just because the system is flawed ( and will remain that way ) doesnt mean we cant express our discomfort with it.

That's a pretty hard grip, but i'm going to try and assume a few things that happened and why you could of possibly dropped. I assume that once you received your MMR, you continued playing and started to lose which then caused you to become frustrated and you continued to play which resulting in more losing. That's my guess, why do i guess that? It's exactly what i did and i was able to break out of it, maybe i was lucky. During the loading phase maybe ask your team to play a support or politely ask for middle and the other players on your team would respond politely and in your favour perhaps?

totally agreed you cant win a game playing as support, but you can definitely give the edge for the first 10 minutes by constantly roaming, ganking and harassing. these three factors will assist in winning the lane. Ofcourse you can't win all the lanes, but you should try to help your safe and middle win their lanes, give them information on where it could possibly be warded, what approached to come from when faced with a situation?

When i say play like a pro, i assume that you are WINNING your lane, you are aware of the map, constantly ganking, creating farm, stacking, capitalizing on enemy mistakes and punishing them even more for it, and taking initiative and communicating with your team. So i guess you and I have two different types of definitions for pros.


http://dotabuff.com/matches/577856686
That's a shame, here are a few of my games.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/576536822
Feeding void
http://dotabuff.com/matches/577402479
out drafted
http://dotabuff.com/matches/572907336
http://dotabuff.com/matches/571351453
Game was prolong which caused the invetiable losts.

we all go through the same thing in the game. Try and ask to see if you can get a carry or a middle role. preferably a middle role since you can carry and create space at the same time.
I also checked your history, you're not constantly playing support, you play a bit of everything. Try picking up storm spirit and steam rolling everything, im sure your mmr will increase to the point where you get decent players.


^many valid points

not exactly sure why double post. sorry.

Its majorly support, semi-support cause people just insta pick pudge or invoker and rest get carries.

I only pick others when my team needs it , like a ganker or a specific hero counter, that AA game was to counter timber, usually i pick him for Alchemist, Huskar type thingy ( you ofcourse get it)

I have no problem supporting, i have no problem ganking, i have no problem ganking across the other end of the map with my skill shot.

What i have a problem is with people just feeding and feeding and deliberate show of noobness. I mean its ok if you suck, every1 did at 1 point. Just be open to advice from those with buttloads of experience.

I didnt really get frustrated. I just accepted that not every1 is as good as i am so i still had to support. You will see majorly my losses are support games or games in which i dont play 1, 2 role.

Just played this one finnaly some1 picked 2 supports before me, all that was left was HARD.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/577952585
Got a couple ultras, pudge had to leave so i just gged mid.

This ones from yesterday man those kids will never understimate the forgotten clinkz,almost 2 rampages(got ksed)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/576206366

Playing carry is fun, i dont get to do it as often.

To Ping,

First Box: So if I am say as talented as purge and my whole team randoms and feeds all game I should still win?

Second Box: Team Cohesion involves them talking to me not me talking to myself in game, also if I don't know how to push why can I backdoor and get rax when my team is idle farming/defending a tier 1/2 tower? Secure kills? as invoker I've killed a ton of people with sunstrike snipes and can show you plenty of footage.

Third box: I asked them if they can speak english and they ignore me and continue speaking spanish when I have ENGLISH checked as language preference. I bought the courier and wards all game, team proceeded to feed and blame me.... Explain how that is justified as me being suckish?


Fourthly to the Purge comment about MMR, you say don't compare MMRs and here you are asking for a comparison between your avg dota player to Purge. Also what if Purge has a higher MMR than say Dendi or some other pro? Does that mean they are trash?

All you've done with this topic is attack players who point out their discomforts about the MMR system.

I totally feel what you went through, been through it as well. Try asking for a middle and maybe they'll give it to you. Usually when i ask for middle i usually get it and i keep farming and ganking as much as possible punishing them every chance i get. Sometimes there isn't much you can do when someone just leaves, it's really hard to win a 4v5 compared to when it was a 4v5 back in dota 1.






First of all the odds of getting your whole team feeding and trolling you are very unlikely. So stop using extremely unlikely scenarios to prove your argument.

Yeah it involves your team talking to you and you talking to your team, not you talking to your self obviously, as you would probably run circles with your thoughts on why your team is bad. If you're able to backdoor and push, then you're lacking the communication with your team. Maybe instead of moaning all the time why you lose, start communicating with your ******** ****ing team. Communication is key!

That can't be possible for every single game, so don't use that as justification. It's just dumb luck that you get queued with a stack of south americans, maybe learn the time zone and figure out when to queue like some individual players i know.( which is really stupid, but proven fact to get less south american players) I get south american players who speak spanish all the time and do you see me *****ing and moaning? maybe from time to time but when i get south american players i play with them, not against them. If they're a stack and i'm not then im going to "join" their stack and do what they tell me to do since they have better synergy than i do. As i previously mentioned you may have the skills to play well but you lack in communication as you literally just implicitly said.

For that last point you made, maybe you need to reread again. I explained that you cannot compare MMR across SERVERS. I'm using what everyone who is aproximately 3000-400 are saying, they claim purge is a terrible player when they cannot get a similar rating as him, yet they are judging his play style. Obviously he's doing something right. You're taking what i say out of context, i think you need to reread what i just wrote.

If purge was a higher MMR than Dendi, and people are calling purge trash, then most likely Dendi is trash then, if in this case and this case ONLY. Purge > Dendi. Realistically that not the truth, stop using If factors if you cannot make a decent argument or have a strong argument.

If you think about all your if statements they are extremely unlikely and defy some sort of logic.
if my math skills serve me right, 4500 > 3800, unless i've been doing math all this time.


Fourthly to the Purge comment about MMR, you say don't compare MMRs and here you are asking for a comparison between your avg dota player to Purge. Also what if Purge has a higher MMR than say Dendi or some other pro? Does that mean they are trash?














These are all your complaints about your team, and this is only including this year. These one literally explicitly say that you blame your team constantly. There are more but those are implicit which i wont include.

http://dotabuff.com/players/91046202/matches
And looking at your dotabuff profile, majority of your losses are because you fed. Though my claim could be wrong but from your final score from all your losses, it seems like you fed pretty damn hard. Like i said before, maybe you're the reason you're losing.

Also, i added you for either 1 of 2 reasons. You were looking for someone to play and i welcomed you with open arms, or to teach you. I do turn down alot of party games as i am busy, and if you change your name alot i'm not going to know who you are and delete you or never message you. ( one of the cons about team, you can always rename yourself and it's hard to keep track of individuals. )

I've attacked those who constantly ***** and moan about the MMR system. Those who can provide strong opinions, i acknowledge then and try to create some sort of discussion with them to further the thought process. You take this as an attack on you because, you literally ***** and moan all day long about your MMR.