help in resolving an argument?

Very well done Smuggles, it sounds logical to me and I am going to agree with you, However I only see this as happening more in lower level games than higher level ones due to people actually knowing how to counter heroes.

good point, by placing a certain hero in different lanes it changes the play style of that hero or in the oppositions mind how they expect you to play that hero...

i.e. invoker picked begets the idea that he will be placed mid, and played in a 2 position, when lane'd safe lane as a support for a hard carry, it would mean that the play style that the opposition had in mind when they saw the invoker pick is now changed.

so you could say the three factors for a player effect hero have a 1 and 2 category.

when placed mid (DK1) dragon knight would illicit a completely separate reaction of the three factors then when placed in lane (DK2).

the hero playing mid having played against a DK mid a lot might have consistently had good games against him. but at the same time that same mid might have played in games where DK wasn't mid and was placed safe lane and absolutely destroyed mid to late game for him/her. thus causing the mid player to swap up their roaming routine to exclusively ganking bottom in fear of a fed mid game Dk.

i like this aspect of the player psychology in response to hero picks.

hahaha yea man go ahead link me it when you finish it :D

its not realistic.

1st of all, heros you mentioned in the first post: pudge, riki, drow arent greedy at all.
they are the complete opposite of greedy,
as they get their potential core (item and skillwise) very early on in the game.

so with this heros, you basically want to achieve map-objectives as soon as possible.
none of them has skills that make them good farmers, so they need to snowball
by killing and most of all - destroying towers. (tower > kills, even though kills often lead to a tower)

so if you build a team around those heros, you are forced into a specific playstyle.
the other side of the medallion is: the opponents know this too,
so they can pick against your upcoming gameplay, as it is very obvious on some of the heros (especially riki, drow and pudge).

the next thing is very important and i think you didnt think about it yet:
the most standard way to pick a team nowadays is a 3/1/1 destribution.
as i already argued, you wanna play as defensive trilane against such draft.

so watch out for defensive trilanes in most progames and you will mention thats is very likely
the case, that one of those support heros is capable of farming in jungle, which negates your aregument of "they have to buy more dust/sentry as usual" by default.


the next thing is:
you say, against pudge most people have to hug towers in order to avoid getting hooked.
well, a defensive trilane normally WANTS to hook the tower anyway,
because most of the time, they protect a hardcarry and as long as he dosent die, everything is fine,
because if sniper/drow/pudge/riki do not snowball, they wont stand a chance the further the game progresses.

---

a tip from me:
the easiest way to build a draft around pudge, is to add supports that guarantee 100% hooks.
you can do such with bane (nightmare), shaker (fissure range 1400, hook range 1400), alch stun (just make sure you have sth like a ward to see the enemy if he walks back near his tower)...


also note: sniper is somewhat different as he is a hero that wins every mid matchup by default with his new 1000 range.

ScarPe good points made, but i think you have missed out completely on what i was explaining and you have kind of just repeated what i said.

my mate said that they were greedy and i disagreed as per above " he says they are greedy and i agree "Mostly" i feel they fall under the (player effect hero)",

"greedy"- by greedy i feel he means "requiring gold at the expense of the team"

i agree they get their core abilities at level 6 or lower. they do require kill>towers to snowball. they do force their own team into a certain playstyle but at the same time they force the enemy team into a counter playstyle, which if you read is what i was getting at.

and you said "support hero is capable of farming in jungle which negates your argument of they have to buy more dust and sentry wards" ... technically it doesnt. they still would have to buy more dust or sentry wards then normal and they still would have to alter their playstyle to counter them. This is what i was explaining.

Your "defensive trilane" point.

as per above (again) i have already raised this.

"when playing against such a hero a stun heavy aggressive trilane is a good counter"

most of what you raise is exactly what i said in the final paragraph.

"most of this is also just good strategy, counter Riki with vision, counter pick Brood Mother with an Earth Shaker, place a stun heavy aggressive Trilane against an Off-lane Timbersaw. "

you seem to have missed the point of the post.

which was "Is there such a thing as a player effect hero?"

i was talking more about the psychological effect hero picks have upon the player and how this influences their playstyle, also on how certain hero abilities have the a similar effect upon the player and their response to those abilities. mostly (as per above again) these can be negated by good strategy, as Zerak Kyria says "in higher levels these heroes would have a diminished effect", i agree at higher levels these heroes are easily countered but they still require a change of mindset by the opponent just not as drastic when the first factor is taken into account.

also, and i just thought of this, when you get into the pro games i actually feel that the title "player effect hero" turns on a whole new light.

for example imagine in pro games the psychological effect upon the enemy team, if Dendi picked a Pudge and he is known to be the best Pudge player in the world. they would feel that even if they countered him he would still be able to outplay them. i love this aspect of it as the ability to counter a pick is completely turned on its head if the player is insanely good with that pick. just remember the reaction at TI3 when dendi got a Pudge pick, the whole crowd went insane. im certain this would have a definite psychological effect upon the oppostion. which is what my whole post was about ...

apologies for the wall of text.

Tell your mate to shove it up his arse... and play w/e he wants. :D On a serious note, now! Your mate seems like the 'person that got rekt 10000 times by "noob" heroes'. I believe there is a stage in everyone's dota career *cough* if you could call it like this when they think that they should hate on the overpicked heroes and give certain reasons why those heroes are non-effective. This might not be the case but if it is it's okay... The better your mate becomes at the game the more he'll start enjoying all heroes. He'll eventually understand that a hero is effective if the player is effective himself. True that riki is easily countered, sniper is really fragile and etc. But they are also really easy and straight forward heroes to play, so a good player can have a lot of fun with them and be very very effective. So in summary tell your mate to think objectively and just try to get better at the game as an overall player not just to be good and focused on "effective" heroes and hate on the overpicked "scrub" ones.

In pro games if they see you pick drow they get even more confident...
Definitely pshycological influence.

Nightstalker is a pshycological hero:
-When it is night you **** your pants and he sees you before you see him.
-His ulti now reduces vision leaving you dead in the water.
-At night he hits hard o_0

You overestimate his damage because of fear.

Enigma forces the enemies never to group up.
Nyx Assassin greatly discourages split pushing.
Techies cause the enemies to not be able to move out of their base... (Hehe)

I heard people bashing BF BH, so i TLDR this tread
http://dotabuff.com/players/83940200/matches?date=&duration=&faction=&game_mode=&hero=bounty-hunter&lobby_type=

I mean, without a BF how else are you supposed to rat doto bounty.

We are mainly talking about the horrible bounty's who rush battle fury and as a result are useless for about 20 minutes, during the period where bounty's skills are really effective.
Then they farm some more becouse first they get an item then is useless early game, and then they get an item that is useless late game, usually S&Y.

But even when ratting i dont think it is worth it getting a mediocre item such as battlefury that late.
You can get necrobook, mealstrom/mjollnir, or even manta if you want to slitpush faster, but you should mainly be the guy to punish splitpush, not doing it.

I am a keeper of the light and ricki is my arch nemesis.I do enjoy watching him die with the help of my team mates when he did not now I had the gem.Its incridble difficult to push lanes when ricky can teleport to you at any momemt

BH isn't a rat hero. Rat is based on splitpushing, global mobility, and disengagement. BH is based on ganking and track gold.