Outdated items made, different role choose and item build.

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Outdated items made on heroes.

I see players making outdated items on heroes, and it ends up in a fail, unless their team has a little bit of luck to turn the fight. Vanguard is still made on Viper, but haven't seen a Hood of Defiance made on him and that's good. This goes for Slark, Anti-Mage, Alchemist, Spectre, Naga Siren, Doom Bringer, Night Stalker. 2225 gold spent for nothing if you ask me. I don't know about Slardar, but I think it's good on him if I'm not wrong. I don't think buying Shadow Blade is needed anymore now. For someone like Viper, Sniper, Luna, Drow Ranger. I would buy Manta Style now on Viper instead of Shadow Blade, Mask of Madness on Sniper(later selling it and buying Desolator), Luna Helm of the Dominator and Manta Style and finally Tarxex Manta Style and Daedalus. I clearly disagree making a Shadow Blade on Slark and it's not even worth. "THANKS" to the nerf to Shadow Blade now it's ****.

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Different role choose.

This is for players who always go for the same role and don't choose the other. The heroes I want to spoke off are Tiderhunter, Omniknight, Elder Titan, Treant Protector, Venomancer, Vengeful Spirit, Nyx Assassin, Silencer, Necrophos, Windranger, Lion, Lina, Bane, Ogre Magi.
Tiderhunter can go for the Tank role not always support, thx to his skills mostly his Kraken Shell. Since Vanguard can not be made on Tidehunter, there is the one called Hood of Defiance. You have damage block without and item and Hp regeneration and Magic resistance at the same time. Black King Bar can also be purchased without interrupting. Omniknight can go for the Tnak role, Elder Titan, Ogre Magi, Treant Protector and he can be semi carry as well. Venomancer and Vengeful Spirit the hard carries who are played as supports. A Venomancer who can take out more than half of the carries is mostly played as a support and this goes for Vengeful Spirit to(Saying that they're semi-carries you're totally wrong. Well sorry mate I guess you haven't played them as carries and you never tested out). Nyx Assassin, Silencer, Necrophos, Lion, Lina, Bane can be played as semi-carries.

Your text to link here... Tidehunter
Your text to link here... Omniknight
Your text to link here... Elder Titan
Your text to link here... Treant Protector
Your text to link here... Venomancer
Your text to link here... Vengeful Spirit
Your text to link here... Nyx Assassin
Your text to link here... Silencer
Your text to link here... Necrophos
Your text to link here... Lion
Your text to link here... Lina
Your text to link here... Windranger
Your text to link here... Bane
Your text to link here... Ogre Magi

Sorry but the most fault about this goes for us old players, for not giving advice to new players that they can be played this way.

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Item build.

Item build always remains same on some heroes. Magnus always Blink Dagger, Refresher. Wait aren't you the carry on your team? Shouldn't you skip this build and carry of your team if really needed Your text to link here...? Night Stalker getting Vanguard and Amrlet of Mordiggian. Can you at least make Sange and Yasha, Amrlet of Mordiggian is ok, Skull Basher and a Daedalus. Aren't you the carry Your text to link here...? Anti-Mage always Battle Fury. Why can't go a single target attack items? I would pick up Vladmir's Offering, Manta Style and Skull Basher, than rather getting a Battle Fury. Your text to link here...

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As to people building outdated items, there are always going to be dumb people, every time I'm in a game with one they are told repeatedly that their build is stupid, they just choose not to listen.

A few other things.

Tank isn't a role and never has been a role. Tidehunter gains almost nothing from tank items, he's basically a super creep after casting ravage.

Venomancer and Vengeful Spirit aren't even close to being even semicarries. They have no scaling abilities, no farming abilities, no DPS steroid. Every viable carry/semicarry in this game has one of those aspects in their skillset.

Magnus is an initiator (not a carry), who is picked for his ult. He can semicarry if you do well early, but in late game he's there to cast is ult and Empower the carry.

Night Stalker is a ganker (not a carry) who makes his impact in getting early kills. I don't agree with vanguard (on anyone), but if he's using it to towerdive and get early kills, he's doing his job and I won't complain.

Anit-Mage gets battlefury because it makes him the fastest farming hero in dota. Sure, it's not be a 100% pickup, but it's a standard item on him for good reason.

Sorry but Venomancer has DPS and Vengeful. I own every ones precious Viper with Venomancer. Night Stalker gank/carry, Magnus initiator/carry. And I know Tank is not a role in Dota.

I agree 100% with the first part. Those items make the heroes uselles for a large portion of the game.

The second part however, there are some weird things.
Some of the support builds are legit, utility items on ommni and elder titan. Farming tide, sure. AC on him is also fine becouse of the aura.
BUT THEN. Treant carry build. Sure it is cool to troll with but its not the normal way to play him.
Venomancer and venge carry builds, venge can be done, but only do this when you dont have carries. Venomancer as a carry is just BAD. Its more ******ed then mirana as a 1 position.
And that nyx build with treads butterfly crit is purely ******ed. PLEASE NEVER DO THAT AGAIN TO YOUR POOR TEAMMATES. GET ****ING ARCANES BLINK.
The rest are just fun pub builds, but please get blink instead of shadow blade on heroes like bane or lion.

About the last part. Magnus needs a blink and arcanes for spamming shockwave. Why would you play carry magnus over other carries?

Not getting battle fury on antimage defeats the whole purpose of picking him. His strength is outfarming you and he cant do that without BF and then you just picked a ****ty hero. Becouse you could have picked terrorblade or even void with his teamfight ult chronosphere.

Grab calculator, do math, venomancer is not a carry, you lose.
He has nothing to help his rightclicks or lategame power stronger and cant get items exept scepter and veil to make his magic damage higher. But that doenst make you a carry.

And again the "Vanguard-worst-item-ever club" shows himself. The Vanguard is actually a pretty good defensive item if gotten early enough (10-12 minutes) on a lot of semi-carries like Doom, Slardar and even Timbersaw I daresay. It's kind of bad on hard carries since the Drum of Endurance usually gives more early game presence for a lower price, but if you need to get early kills being able to take minimal damage when tower diving is what you should be looking for.

The Shadow Blade is also kind of needed on Drow Ranger and Sniper unless you want to go for the Phase + Drums + Yasha build that I prefer, which you kind of suggested.

For Viper, going damage with a Manta Style is plain stupid: you should be looking for survivability items (as you said) like Mekansm, Heaven's Halberd, Hood of Defiance and Aghanim's Scepter; most of your damage comes from your passive, so if you have a lot of HP you're actually dishing more damage over time than with damage items. a Manta is still good after your core though.

Shadow Blade on Luna? Worst idea ever. If you want to be invincible while using your ulti, go Black King Bar.

Venomancer and Vengeful Spirit hard carries? They can be used as semi-carries, but Veno isn't good at that role anymore after his damage nerf and VS hasn't got any ability that scales into late game unless going for an armor reduction strategy with Slardar, Templar Assassin etc.

I agree with Silencer and Necrophos, but not completely with Lion, Lina and Bane. They're good semi-carries, you're right, but they do the exact same thing even without farm; why would you give them the mid lane if you know they are basically supports with some extra levels that way? Nyx Assassin is pretty good as a support in my opinion (though competitive players no longer use him this way D:), but as you said it's even a better semi-carry: giving him the mid lane, since Arcanes + Blink is all he needs to be an initiator, is a bit of a waste, so competitive players suggest the off-lane.

As for the "tanks", Timminatorr already said there's no "tank" role. I guess they can be played as off-laners though, aside from Ogre Magi.

Carry items on Magnus? Nope.

Carry items on Night Stalker? It depends on what you mean with "carry items": Armlet + BKB is fine in my opinion.

Anti-Mage without a Battle Fury is much less effective: I would skip it only if I were severely underfarmed (20+ minutes without a BF), but if gotten at about 16 minutes it speeds up your farm by a lot. You can normally go BF for the first 15 minutes, then Manta by 25 minutes (or 30 if you get a Vlad's before) and your Heart/Butterfly/BKB by ~35 (or 40 with a Vlad's) minutes. Without a BF you would get Vlad's + Manta + Butterfly at ~30-35 minutes, which makes the BF build much more efficient.

He made nyx assasin with butterfly and crit.
I wouldnt consider him a semi carry even if he is offlane, just like clockwerk he is not about DPS. Timbersaw might be considered a semi carry nuker, but just becouse you are 1 of the 3 cores doesnt mean you are a (semi-carry)

Agreed, the 2nd half just seems like something you tried in Pubs that somehow worked.

As Vice-President of the "Vanguard-Worst-Item-Ever Club", even I can admit that it's a great Item on Slardar, and not a bad option on Nightstalker either, since most people use Nightstalker as a Core who can win the game fast (usually before the Vanguard falls off anyway).

Even we at VWIEC can admit Vanguard has its uses.

This ^

Still, you can get away with some crazy stuff, even in Competitive matches


Play Video
But please do not get the wrong idea from this video, i.e. Nightstalker is the Position 1 Hero, but he is by no means a Hard Carry, since they were clearly planning on winning the game long before the Late Game.

Feel free to challenge pre-conceptions about Heroes and experiment with crazy ideas, I intend to try playing Windranger as a Position 1 due to the Buff to Focus Fire. Even though none of her Abilities Scale in a traditional way, having Max Attack Speed on a single target every 15 seconds will let her Burst down a troublesome Late Game Carry like Medusa or Tiny with sufficient Damage Items, like Daedalus, Desolator, etc. I just need to find a Team CRAZY enough to try it, not to mention the right opposing line-up. X{D

At the end of the day though, you've got to ask yourself, "Why is X built with Y?" " Why do players always get A on B?" rather than outright rejecting concepts.

I am not trolling know that.



Dude you're wrong. Venomancer as was always a best carry and Vengeful Spirit. Not matter how much you're gonna say it's BAD I can prove you at any time that you're wrong. Please don't tell me cause of 6 years experience with Venom and Venge, a fed Venom takes down a fed Viper and Venom is stronger.



Magnus is a great carry sorry for the disapoint. Even I go for the same build on him. But when I have to carry I have to. That match I posted, there was no other choice to carry cause Invoker was owning us and we had no advantage to defeat them.



It's not ******ED Tim, Please I play Nyx Assassin Ganker/Nuker and I also play the old style carry Nyx Assassin pre 6.68 version. I'm enough experienced to do this and you don't have the right to tell me to stop. I'm the one who should say stop playing Venomancer support, but I don't, I agree if they want to play him like that. But a carry Venom is more scarier than a carry Viper. People like you with there thoughts from the start made me angry about this, but I got use to that and don't get angry anymore. So don't try to prove wrong, cause I'm the one who's proving you wrong and you just can't accept that.



Dude even if his damage was nerfed by 5 that doesn't make him a useless anyway or whatever. Why should say about this for Bristleback damage reduced by 4.



Dude I did not say Shadow Blade has to be made on Luna I said it's wrong to. It's not very stupid going Manta on Viper. Yeah still Shadow Blade can be made on Drow Ranger and Sniper.



Yes Magnus is a carry but you can do this if it's only situational. Also Night Stalker is a geat Carry.

i havent read all posts yet but i have to disagree with venomancer and venge being carries.
What defines a (hard)carry is high physical dps out, which usually is provided by a sort of attack modifier in his skill kit. Vengefull Spirit has an amazing Aura and a good "AOE minus armor skill" but since every other hero (including REAL hard carries with REAL attack modifiers) can profit from those 2 abilities as well, venge usually is played as a support rather than being the carry herself. Venomancer is pretty much the same thing. His PHYSICAL dps isnt high enough to make him a carry. Also his "attack modifier" is refreshed if he attacks the same target over and over again, making Venomancer a hit and run hero. He can easily spread slows and damage, REAL carries can profit from. Dont get me wrong ...venomancers damage is insanely good, but its mostly coming from his spells. And if those are on cooldown he is pretty much useless, since his rightclick is so much inferior to other carries.