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Hi everyone,
I recently saw a trilane of Treant Protector, Weaver, and Abaddon.
It got me thinking, how do you kill the Weaver??
Obviously you need a disable, but most of them can be got rid of by Abaddon.
So my question is, what stuns/disables can Abaddon not debuff?
Atm I can only think of hex and Shackles by Shadow Shaman
Shadow Demon + Leshrac + a carry with a high damage spell like Sven, Alchemist or Morphling: first hit Weaver with one of those spells when he doesn't have any armor, then a Disruption + Split Earth combo should kill him if you can do it quickly enough ( Kunkka's Torrent after the combo works well, too). Otherwise, just force the armor of the two supports and get the carry when the spells are on cooldown, or drain their mana with Nyx Assassin.
I honestly don't think you need stuns to kill Weaver: just put pressure on the enemy trilane and wait for their mistakes.
Something very important to realize in DotA is that sometimes in lane, you won't get kills. All you have to do is survive. In CM games we run Nature's Prophet long lane solo versus tri lane often. The NP never gets any kills, but he isn't a mid game hero anyway. With teleport that may be a poor example, so consider BH solo long lane. BH eats his way into the trees, soaks up EXP, and eventually hits 6. He doesn't get any kills in lane, yet he's a huge asset to the team. You don't need to get kills in your lane to win it. This is why Timbersaw is a viable mid. He will never get kills without assistance from supports, but he also will never die. It's typically a tied lane.
Weaver is hard to kill, Abaddon makes him harder to kill, tree makes him even harder to kill. But what kind of tri lane is that? Tree falls off by the mid game, abaddon falls off late game, and Weaver excels in the late game. So with those picks, you build around a weaker early game, stronger mid game, and strongest late game.
Get heroes like Rubick, Visage, and Naga for supports. If you can't kill your lane, kill a different one. Take Rubick and Naga and smoke middle. Kill middle and suddenly there's 3 mid for your team, none for theirs, and you push towers. This is something that their tri lane is not capable of. Abaddon and tree cannot gank other lanes. They are forced to stay in lane and baby sit the weaver. Stay mobile. When their tri sees that your carry is now solo, make sure to keep TP's on your supports for inevitable armor/shield weaver tower dives. Survive to the mid/late game and you should have no problem winning.
Ok so my first question was kinda silly, just saw it in a pro match and thought it looked really clever.
Anyone want to try answering my second question?
I'm sorry to dissapoint, but I think the only thing he doesn't debuff with Aphotic Shield is Doom.(except any kind of Hex and maybe Shackles - need confirmation on this one though).
It's basically what Angelo has pointed out, you really can't kill them in lane unless they've made a mistake. It's a huge survival/defensive lineup so if they go aggressive on you then your chances to kill them is higher.
One of the few chances where you can probably kill Weaver is if they try to tower dive you. Abaddon will most likely pre-shield Weaver and the bug will Shukuchi in, you can use this time to try and kill Weaver. Otherwise...
You should try looking at this game more dynamically. Don't ask things like "What hero can disable through Abbadons shield?" The answer to this question isn't going to yield an effective counter to Abbadon support.
Someone I was helping asked me "Who beats Outword Devourer mid?" There's really two answers: Razor and Viper. But let's say you can't play them for whatever reason. OD is a paper cannon. 1-2 ganks and he's out of the game for 20-30 minutes. So you get heroes that counter OD middle. Here are two examples of my team captain and I ringing on some random team in a recent tournament. We went undefeated with his drafts, and won $500 (w00t?). These two games are both OD mid, and he never wins his lane. We always gank him frequently.
Or "Who counters Shadow Fiend middle?" There aren't many heroes who can beat him 1v1 after his first few souls. But he needs some serious baby sitting (through TP's), has no rune control, and cannot gank without a blink/SB/invis rune. So you don't beat him in lane, you beat him with a more mobile hero and level your side lanes with ganks.
Look at the game more as a whole. Take into account the laning stage, ganking stages, roaming (effectiveness out of smokes), pushing, defending, mobility, team fight contribution, disabling, boosting team DPS, lowering opponents DPS, diving, jungling (If you start to lag behind), item dependence (compared to the rest of your team, so you're not fighting for farm), lane control, stat growth (When does the hero peak in strength? How long until he falls off? What time is your team designed to win at? A lot of mid game pushers? A lot of late game carries?) etc etc. Take everything into account. That's how you pick your team. Not just "Well, he counters shield." etc etc... Best of luck t1mmay. :D
Also, if the other team is investing so much into farming weaver defensively, consider it somewhat of a "Chinese" type of game, there are a carries out there that can outcarry that hero effectively, and late game living armor and shield won't really help as much when you have a hard carry dealing 300 or more damage per hit.
Gyrocopter does a good job laughing off shields with how high his damage output gets for example, this is my opinion personally, and for what it's worth even if a grain of salt, I've nuked the hell out of Abby's shield with gyro a few times.
We had a CM game against a spectre trilane with an Abby (no treant sorry) and shadow demon, I just took undying and made their day a long one.
A hero like dirge can upset the trilane you were talking about, you will make Abaddon go through mana pretty fast, and keep giving them concerns with decay, they run a bit low on mana and a 400max hp weaver suddenly isn't so obnoxious. Although this is personal bias (undyings my favorite hero).
Also can shadow demon purge those effects? Safely assuming he can, which can help a good deal in mid game fights, giving you an opportunity to force an early rewind from weaver while you pew pew the rest of their team.
Just a few ideas from the peanut gallery, and id strongly suggest going by what Angelo and Nubtrain have pointed out.
If they're running something like that though, it's a lot of eggs in one basket, hell pick spectre and win late lol. With aggressive supports like nyx assassin and Lina maybe? There are plenty of other choices too, but soak up xp and win the other lanes and make it much more of a nightmare for them to just protect weaver while he farms forever
Step 1: Pick Bristleback
Step 2: type in all chat:"GL hf"
Step 3: solo offlane
Step 4: first blood triple kill solo vs trilane
Step 5: continue head butting keyboard
Step 6: don't care, Bristleback doesn't give a ****
Step 7: screenshot repeated: BB OP comments in all chat
Step 8: alternate games with Slark pick
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Step 2: type in all chat:"GL hf"
Step 3: solo offlane
Step 4: first blood triple kill solo vs trilane
Step 5: continue head butting keyboard
Step 6: don't care, Bristleback doesn't give a ****
Step 7: screenshot repeated: BB OP comments in all chat
Step 8: alternate games with Slark pick
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