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Why does everyone....

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Forum » Theory Crafting » Why does everyone.... 34 posts - page 3 of 4
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » January 8, 2013 2:09am | Report
It's a variety of factors - trust, teamwork, playstyle etc...but yeah I'd say it is mostly about ego - wanting big kill numbers next to your name. People don't like being vulnerable and reliant on others to do their jobs (i.e. being a support) - thing is you need someone to do this job.

Unfortunately for the same reason you sometimes get 2 hard carries on the same team, 3 players with Hand of Midas etc. People try to play within their own bubble and don't look at the bigger picture of what's going on.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Hades4u » January 8, 2013 3:56am | Report
Sando wrote:

It's a variety of factors - trust, teamwork, playstyle etc...but yeah I'd say it is mostly about ego - wanting big kill numbers next to your name. People don't like being vulnerable and reliant on others to do their jobs (i.e. being a support) - thing is you need someone to do this job.

Unfortunately for the same reason you sometimes get 2 hard carries on the same team, 3 players with Hand of Midas etc. People try to play within their own bubble and don't look at the bigger picture of what's going on.

Now with the new 5 man dota meta, I doubt people will still go rambo 1v5 and will start 'teamworking'
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by SuperNova » January 8, 2013 7:06am | Report
Typical team:

riki
pudge
huskar
bounty hunter
drow ranger

In my experience the reason is these people play a game as a carry and think ' wow, im so good! i killed all those dudes! im gonna play this hero all the time!" and forget about all the other heros. I know because thats what i did and its bad. People think the can just afk farm and 1vs5 and win and when they dont they blame it on the guy who has the lowest kills. so nobody wants the lowest kills because they dont want to be caught out as the weakest link and feel like it was their fault, hence lack of support players in mid-low bracket. Luckily i dont get that much because i always random and i play with friends.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » January 9, 2013 2:18am | Report
Yeah, I'm lucky enough to play in a bracket where you do get some support players...or I just do it myself cos it's too annoying for the role not to be filled.

Think the biggest part of the problem as you mention Nova is that people play some games where they do well, and they can just repeat that again when the circumstances might be different. Your team might not have the same ability to keep them occupied, the opposition might have a better carry or things are just not going well.

I've seen players go for their standard Hand of Midas long game build when it's obvious that things are going to be decided a long time before that pays off - or last-picking a carry jungler when their team is badly lacking in support, has no solo and poor lane presence.

Interesting game I played last night, our Luna outcarried Phantom Lancer, Weaver and Lone Druid - their farm was split too many ways and it end up costing them.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Suitup169 » January 15, 2013 8:13pm | Report
1. It's worth pointing out that heroes with the carry role listed are almost evenly matched with all heroes who don't have the carry role listed (47 carries to 49 non-carries). That doesn't count heroes like Pudge and Nightstalker who are regularly played as carries. Even if your whole team randomed, it is statistically likely that you'd wind up with about 2-3 carries. By contrast, even including carries, there are only 28 support heroes (and only 12 primary support heroes) and 21 pushers (with a lot of overlap). It's a short-coming that will hopefully be remedied as Valve continues to release new heroes.

2. There's a generally sensible axiom about pugging in DOTA that I think I read here when I first started playing. "Play for the team; rely on yourself." Unfortunately, especially in the meta of low-level pug matches right now, relying on yourself as a support player is very difficult after the lane phase. You are probably under-geared (since you almost certainly had a carry in lane with you, bought the courier and maybe wards) and under-leveled against the enemy hero who was soloing mid and has come to gank you 3-2. So, you die while your carry partner hopefully escapes. You're even further behind on money and xp, and without actual competent help from your team, it will be very difficult to catch up, even if the team starts leading in total kills. You have to be present and alive to get rewards for those team fights, and you are low-hanging fruit for the enemy carries after a team-fight is initiated. Now you are being yelled at for your horrible K-D, even though you are playing Omni-Knight who is melee, has no real nukes, and because of his ulti is a prime target at the start of a fight. Sound familiar? Everyone who's pugged as a support in a low-ranked match has had this game, at least once, and it's enough to make you want to say, "Hell with these people. Let them buy their own courier and support themselves."

3. It's basic human psychology. All (or at least) most of the things people already said are true. People feel good about solid K-D ratios, they like to hear "Ultra Kill!" when it's them on the giving side of the kill, etc. Also, psychologically speaking, a support hero sounds like half a hero. He needs someone to support to be good, whereas a carry, once farmed, is by definition a complete package. Finally, lower-ranked players haven't got the game experience to plan for a fluid match (I certainly don't, and I feel like I'm doing well for being new). So, you tend to plan for not exactly best case scenario. You reasonably envision a few set-backs, a successful gank, some good early harass, etc. You don't plan for the enemy team to ward your jungle while you're farming on Ursa and to then come gank you while you're at half life engaged with a creep camp. So, the major drawback of a carry (that you have to farm consistently for longer than any non-carry) to reach your amazing potential doesn't really enter into their equations.

4. Carries are often (certainly not always) simpler characters to play. Think over the popular carries you see in low-ranked games (Drow, Sniper, Bloodseeker, Luna, etc.) All of these heroes have 2 passives. You only have to manage two buttons. I can't think of a single support hero with 2 passives; most don't even have 1. This appeals to a newer player who's micro, timing, and targeting are suspect.

5. Lastly, it's the sub-meta of low-ranked games. As far as I can tell watching replays of more skilled games, skilled games aren't really about who won more team fights or had the highest kill count. It's more like hockey. How well did you capitalize on the power-play where one or more opponents are in the penalty box (waiting to respawn). Lower-skilled games, especially pugs, don't have the coordination to do that most of the time. If they win a team fight and knock out 2 of the enemies, they don't form up and push mid and take a tower or barracks. They dither around looking for the other 3. So, the game actually is usually (slowly) decided by who team-fights better, more evenly distributes not only their deaths, but who kills them and gains the upper hand in xp and gold until that advantage is so big that they sweep in and win. I often see games go another twenty minutes after it's perfectly clear to me that the other team has won. It's 53 to 18, why are we all still here? Sometimes they're running up the score, but I feel like it's more often that they don't feel confident, even with a lead that size, that they can go in and get the win.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » January 16, 2013 3:17am | Report
Excellent post there Suit (+rep) - lot of good points, I remember going through some of these things myself as a beginner (breaking your back doing the heavy lifting as a support, only to get shafted by your team is not fun :)). As you get better it becomes a lot easier to be self-reliant though - even as a support.

Ultimately though, as you move up the skill brackets, poor or selfish picks/play begin to really stack the odds against your team...
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by SuperNova » January 16, 2013 4:04am | Report
Sando wrote:

Yeah, I'm lucky enough to play in a bracket where you do get some support players...or I just do it myself cos it's too annoying for the role not to be filled.




Hey, I play in a bracket where people pick support its just that half the time I end up with russians. I almost always random anyway. More fun.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Sando » January 16, 2013 4:43am | Report
If you see Russian names you should know they're not going to ward...or possibly even buy a courier. Pick an aggressive support and join in the mayhem (at least it'll be fun :)). I like to random whenever possible (only avoiding hideous micro heroes), but it does sometimes mean a bad lineup as people ignore your pick completely.

Had one the other day where we had Phantom Assassin, Windrunner, Dark Seer and Zeus - I ended up having to buy the courier as a jungling Ursa as no other bugger did. That's before the madness of running WR/DS safe lane and PA top lane solo....gotta love pubs :)
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by SuperNova » January 16, 2013 5:05am | Report
Sando wrote:

If you see Russian names you should know they're not going to ward...or possibly even buy a courier. Pick an aggressive support and join in the mayhem (at least it'll be fun :)). I like to random whenever possible (only avoiding hideous micro heroes), but it does sometimes mean a bad lineup as people ignore your pick completely.

Had one the other day where we had Phantom Assassin, Windrunner, Dark Seer and Zeus - I ended up having to buy the courier as a jungling Ursa as no other bugger did. That's before the madness of running WR/DS safe lane and PA top lane solo....gotta love pubs :)

Yea, I usually pick aggressive supports anyway.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Solar » January 19, 2013 11:35pm | Report
Think the simplest answer is everyone wants to pew pew and you don't get to do massive amount of dmg or godlike as a support

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