Competitive Heroes, let's talk about them.

Hello guys!:)

I'm not so much a new player, but I opened this thread because I think what I'm gonna ask you is kinda a newbie thing.
I play dota from some month, and after picking a lot of hero I decided to be good with Legion Commander, I liked this hero. But one day when I was watching the tournaments replay I found out that Legion is never picked.

Maybe there's better than this hero. I thought.

So I changed character. Maybe there are characters who are born to be competitive, others to be just fun to play and that's it.

So Techies has been released, and I asked everyone: "Is techies a competitive hero?"
and everyone: "LOL no".
It seems absurd to me that a hero in a Sport-like game like Dota is just funny.
Actually I had doubts when a gem can ruin 15-20 minutes of planting bombs in the map.
But I thought:"Maybe a skilled player can do better".

Now I know there's plenty of possibilities in any game with every hero, but a hero doomed to be just fun in a Competitive game like dota isn't just unuseful?

I know you can do GREAT with every hero, but why pick a hero when you know that you could practise with other heroes more useful, with more potential?

And that's the case for Tusk, Terrorblade, Legion and others. Heroes who seems great to me but I see they are never choosen. Heroes who seems have great potential to me but (as I see in tournaments) they haven't so much potential. So what's the point in these heroes?

There is something that you need to know. In Captain's Mode (the pro-mode) some heroes are unavailable to pick. Here is the list:

• Legion Commander
• Soul Keeper
• Earth Spirit
• Broodmother
• Phoenix
• Techies

And there are some good reasons for excluding those heroes. Many of those heroes are relatively new, and there are also balance issues. Those heroes are not tested enough in competetive gaming and they could create some "risky" strategies that would break many games, when you can win some serious money. I think that Broodmother is the closest one to be released.

Techies in competetive gaming would be a joke, because pro players knows the importance of true sight.

And there is something you said that I have to fix. You can own with every hero, but only if there are proper drafts (assuming similar Dota skill).

Tusk was picked few times recently. He is just not that popular, due to his unusual role in Dota2. This is the same case as with Pugna, Undying (Undying maybe not that much, but still he is quite greedy for a support and he doesn't have a stun and he requieres solo experience more, while he is not the best offlaner) or Necrophos. They are not great carries, but they need farm and solo experience. Why would you like to give them farm priority when you could pick Gyrocopter or Naga Siren and melt the enemy team when the game will be long enough? And semi-carries like Templar Assassin fits better that #2 position mid-game carry than Tusk.

To your last question: They don't have enough potential, because heroes like Bloodseeker, Tusk, Huskar or Spirit Breaker (all of them rarely picked) need to snowball to be effective. By snowballing I mean dominating in the early stage of the game, take the huge advantage of your enemies and then end the game as fast as possible. It is very risky, because if whole team will commit to let that Bloodcyka farm and get kills, but the other team will be able to stand against it and their rax will be still standing in minute 40 and they will have a proper carry like Lifestealer, then your Bloodseeker is useless and you lost a game.
Those heroes you listed can be very strong, of course, but in certain circumstances, that will not always happen. And you do not want to rely on something unrealiable, right? Competetive Dota is less fun, more stress. I know that you would like to see Pudge in TI4 finals, but this is just too risky. I hope you understand this :)

Thanks for that list, I didn't played Captains more than 2 times, so it's clear that new heroes need to be balanced first.

Your answer is very clear, Pudge needs to kill, and if they avoid it (not too much difficult in tournaments), Pudge has no many alternatives to be useful for the team.

The conclusion is that Templar> Pudge, Gyrocopter> Necrophos. Probably there are situation where this can change (counterpicks, combos), but probably there a gerarchy. That's something unbalanced.

I mean, it's not so unbalanced, but strongest heroes are the more flexible. That's why Mirana is more picked than Riki (extreme example but it fits).

But this seems bad and sad for Riki (I hate this hero), I would like they gave equal importance to every hero. I think a various game is more funny. Sure he dominates in pubs, but knowing he's not so good if countered by vision, is uncool.

And that's bad for me because I see the same heroes in tournamens, Lycan (this is probably OP), the Prophets, Void (this hero really needs a bash skill?), Shadow Shaman+Death Prophet (Go away from your tower you cant defend it).

So I think is not worth it to learn Pudge very well (just learning how to counter), but better to study some Mirana or Nature's Prophet. Am I right?

To your very last question. If you want to play competetive - study each hero. You never know how meta will change :).

Pudge is very fun to play and can be great even in pro games. We, casuals, can play that Riki and have a great time if we know what we are doing. I wouldn't say that detection = bye bye Riki. Smart Riki can get a Gem of True Sight himself, deward a map, and kill by surprise the other team gem carrier.

There are some heroes that are stronger than others at pro level, there's not much doubt about that. But the skill/teamwork required to make them work can be a slightly different matter, and there are some less used heroes that counter those heroes effectively.

I wouldn't say any hero is useless, and heroes like Necrophos which don't see much pro play still have the highest win rate in pubs, as they work well against less skilled players, in less co-ordinated teams, etc.

The meta changes from patch to patch, and as particular heroes or strategies fall in or out of favour. For example, Riki used to be picked quite a lot in pro games, mainly as a counter to Anti-Mage, who was very popular for a while. Windranger used to be picked nearly every game in the past, but hardly gets a look in now. The thing is they are more situational, or are counters to other picks - the "best" heroes do tend to be the most flexible, but that doesn't mean others are useless.

Yes It's rare for me to see a Dragon Knight own a pub, but he did very good at International, so Brewmaster.
While the pub winners are often invisible heroes or nukers like Pudge, Lina.

So what I see now is this: Every hero can be competitive in the future, it's up to the patches. But there are heroes (like Mirana or Treant) who everyone should learn because now they are the ones with more potential.

The other heroes can situationally be better but generally are more or less worse.

Am I right?

A lot of heroes require a certain playstyle that some players might not be comfortable with or know at all. For example, some players stay in mid too long with Dragon Knight to farm and do not make enough impact in the game. The point of a Dragon Knight at mid is to farm and/or soak up as much levels as possible then apply pressure in other lanes. DK is also fairly tanky with levels due to Dragon Blood so he only needs some items to fulfill his role, however the more items he has the better.

For a few heroes, maybe some patches will help them like Windranger, bring back the shackle latch range and I think she'll be picked more often. Whatever the current meta is, it's not just the heroes that make up the meta but a certain strategy that has been dominant with certain heroes i.e: Deathball-push strats with Shadow Shaman and Razor is a good example. What follows this meta is the "counter meta" that will probably become the new meta of the future, basically... flavor of the month.

It's up to the players to find the counters to this strategy, Tuskar has been getting popular because he can punish poorly positioned heroes. He can also gank mid relatively easy with Snowball since he can begin to roll with high-max speed if he used Smoke of Deceit to hide. Another one is Tidehunter, really strong at teamfights and can farm Blink Dagger pretty quickly with Ancient or Jungle farming.

Every hero is competitive, it's what strategy you have in mind that counts a lot more. I.E, when Vengeful Spirit became a popular counter to Faceless Void. Whoever is caught by Chronosphere is most likely dead anyways, so why not have VS swap then die and apply Vengeance Aura to lower the enemy team's damage output and also save an ally who can probably do more after a chrono has been used.

Ok I think have clearer ideas now ^_^

Thanks for the answers.