Why the system sucks

I completely agree. That's where the other factors I also mentioned enter, I think: the common sense, the ability to learn outside of the game, being open to take advice and try new things, etc.

I'm just am very tired of people that find themselves in a high mmr through all those methods we spoke about only to be so arrogant in their noobness :)

And a perfect example of the opposite is Bunkansee, that you probably all know from here. He doesn't have a high mmr that I know of, but he has teached me more than my other friends with high mmr have. And he's a darn good teamplayer. I'm sad to think he has to create a smurf and build himself some mmr for people to realize this (and that means me too, two days ago somebody asked me in a game what whas my mmr and if it was around 3k, and didn't believe me when I said I had none since I didn't do the calibration games yet).

@Chichi

i either am completely missing the point, or am just fundamentally misunderstanding you.

Yes, after creating an entirely new account, the system wont be able to determine your skill level...other than asking the "How familiar are you with Dota, or similar games" - question. And yes, this means that your first (few) game(s) will be a "mixed bag" of random skillevels.

But even if your account is brand new, there still is a level restriction (i think its 13), you have to reach before you are even allowed to play ranked games. And this restrictions main purpose, is to give the system enough time/data to assess your hidden mmr. If you are a 5k player with a level 13 smurf account...and didnt intentionally try to falsify your rating (by intentionally feeding or w/e), there is no chance you will ever get matched with real "new players"...even during your calibration.

Thanks for your clarifications. You said all of this happens only if you "didnt intentionally try to falsify your rating". And if you do, intentionally falsify this, what happens? When you go ranked you can't go further than a low mmr, because your invisible number will be so low even if you win the 10 games it will amount to nothing, or you can still pretend in the regular games until ranked and then get 3k or higher? Because if this is true, then I finally get Smuggel's reasoning: you play truthfully from the beggining in the smurf, just to be able to get high mmr quicker than in your own account (even if I find that silly, it makes sense).

@ChiChi

i think you finally got it :)

for example my first ranked calibration game the mean mmr was around 3.2 if i remember correct. then the next one was 3k so obviously you must play one above and below your hidden mmr to start, then i kept winning untill i got to my 7 or 8th game where the mean mmr was 4.6k i think and i lost that one and the next 3 so i think my hidden mmr was around 3.1k then because i won in higher mmr brackets during calibration it changed a bit.

there are people who purposefully fail hard just to see how low an mmr they can get but the majority of smurfs are to recalibrate their mmr.

i only made a smurf because i cbf playing hundreds of ranked games. and on my smurf i was placd within my tier pretty much instantly. my first 6 games i did destroy pretty hard but i tried to be helpful and give advice where i could. telling our lina to build euls and just being helpful and i got a lot of people adding me and asking for help to improve which is something good. after about 15 games i was playing with dudes who were decent and knew what they were doing to a degree but their game sense was pretty horrible and their decision making was bad allround. after around 20-30 games i was in the high skill bracket and people were pretty decent and knew what they were doing 90% of the time but the picks and overall gamesense was still underdeveloped then after around 50-60 games i was in very high skill and i would maybe win either 3/5 or 2/5 depending on how i played.

system is broken in the sense that it shouldnt force players to have to grind and grind and grind and grind IN ranked. you grind already in pubs it just doesnt show.

this is my idea for the MMR problem

" All players have their hidden mmr which is affected by Public games. All players have their Ranked MMR which is affected by Ranked games. When a players Hidden MMR either drops below or goes above the bracket that their ranked mmr is currently residing in then an option to play 3 recalibration matches should be presented to the player. During these recalibration matches they are placed in the new bracket only for the 3 games and not in their previous bracket. if they win 2/3 then their hidden mmr is made into their ranked mmr."

For Example:

previous mmr's
Hidden mmr - 2.5
ranked mmr- 2.4

current mmr's
hidden mmr - 3.1
ranked mmr - 2.4

recalibration matches
3000 k bracket
they win 2/3 matches.

now:
hidden mmr - 3.1
ranked mmr -3.1



what do you guys think?

Smuggles maybe you should work at valve? I think your system is very well designed. It has one basic flaw though (despite this it is the best system which I think could ever be made), this being that someone's hidden mmr could be artificially inflated by the amount of trolls and general idiots within pubs. This is a minor threat, however, because you will find this in ranked as well, so the system you described is as perfect as I ever see mmr calibration being. Does icefraud care, though? Probably not.

Well. Boy have I just had a game...it was perfect for this. So I was antimage, playing in the mmr bracket that I have fallen into in the last 2 weeks. I farmed well and hit my timings-battlefury at 15 minutes and stuff I farmed well, got the necessary items... But however much I tried. I couldn't win. They literally threw their heroes at our buildings and got a set of rap. I shrugged it off, bought travels to de push, and continued owning. Then Razor literally threw the entire game by dying. He stood there and tried to man fight Bloodseeker, and lost. So then they mega creeped us. Off of one frickin kill. Sure they all died, but they gro mega creeps. And the frustrating thing was? They won because of my teammates mistakes, not mine. And it was so frustrating because I tried my absolute hardest. But my team failed me. So I performed well, but lost because of my team. And it's frustrating because I am currently trying to get out of my hellhole of a bracket, and however hard I try, however much I get better, I can't play for 4 other people. Those are the games that make me want to quit dota...

Also, the entire enemy team was Peruvian. That was the 2nd worst part

@arm^^dotabuff i.d ?

@ koop

i think it will stop a lot of whining and a lot of problems to do with ranked.

also if they lose their recalibration matches they can then still just try the old way of getting mmr ... by playing ranked.

and the good thing is if people still complain you can say ... if you were actually at *insert supposed skill level here* then you would be offered to recalibrate and since you arent u are actually *insert actual skill level* and if people do get given their recali games and lose it means that they are close to but not yet at the next bracket.

i would also put in a 3 month stay between recali games so your 2.5 and u get recali but fail if your still at or hgher then 2.5 in 2 months then you are offered your 3 recali games again.

Guys, I think think they should merge Party MMR and Solo MMR.

Because of bad teammates, like above.

Thanks, now I get it indeed. The system you suggest seem a nice way of pleasing people that want someway to show their improvement. I wonder if kkoopman3 isn't right and they simply don't care with that kind of stuff, since it does not translate directly into money for them.

altho i think, that its a nice idea, it has a major flaw in my eyes. What you are talking about, is basically "merging" both MMR - stats, which would lead to a pretty chaotic environment. Normals would become competitive all of a sudden, since everybody would just play to push their MMR. Could you imagine being a new player in such an environment?
There would be no place to play casually, try new builds, learn new heroes etc.etc.

To me it appears to be all the same: a system that rewards grinding. Only that you now have a wider "grinding-space"