The realistic 65% win rate for viper

Hi thuzkee
I'm assuming you're asking why I have chosen to purchase an MKB over a daedulus in the late game.
Well, first let us examine the stats from both items.

MKB(5400gold)
+88 damage
+15 attack speed
mini bash-35% chance to deal 100 damage and 0.01 stun,which mathematically converts to an addition of an average of 35 magical damage to every attack
true strike-prevent your true strikes from missing


Daedulus(5550gold)
+81 damaage
critical strike-25% chance to deal 240% crit (25% 2.5x critical = .75 + .25*2.5 = 1.375 = 37.5% damage increase in damage on an average attack)

Daedalus: +81 damage

Basically, from these stats, undertsand that
1) Note: DPS=damage per second and APS=attacks per second
DPS = APS * Damage
Hence, you can see that daedulus becomes increasingly better as your damage increases because
your crit a percentage of your damage. Bonus damage from MKB is a constant and is MAGICAL.

2) If you wish to have more pushing power during the late game, MKB is the
better choice because crit does not work on buildings.
On the other hand, dadeulus would most certainly edge out MKB in a team fight.

3) True strike from MKB is very useful if you see phantom ***sasin, brewmaster or windranger OR
heroes that purchase evasion items like butterfly or heaven's halberd.
In such situations, MKB would without doubt be the better buy.

4) MKB makes every hit count. Dadeulus' crit is based on chance. Daedulus would work better in
an enduring teamfight because the shorter you are with your daedulus in the teamfight, the less
chance you have to crit. Hard to explain in words but i think its pretty logical if you think
about it.

I just want to say that ultimately it is more situation based than fixed and sometimes more of a personal preference. I would get MKB most of the time though. The bonus damage to push those towers is a huge plus point for me. The rest of the points, I' ll leave it for you to weigh yourself i guess.

For example, im just plucking figures from the air,
Viper deals 200 damage per attack and has 200 AS.

(323)(1.15+2) ? (386.375)(1+2)
1017.45 < 1159.125

Daedalus gives more DPS

for example, viper deals 100 damage per attack and has 200 AS
(223)(3.15) ? (248.875)(3)
702.45 < 746.625

Daedalus gives more DPS

for example, deals 100 damage per attack and has 100 AS
(223)(2.25) ? (248.875)(2)
501.75 > 497.75

MKB gives more DPS


If you are a maths person, I'll give you the mathematical explanation. But in a game,really, you wont have the time to work out the figures. Just get a rough feel of how this works.

Note: DPS=damage per second and APS=attacks per second

DPS = APS * Damage

Define pre-existing damage as X, pre-existing AS as Y

Post-Daedalus damage

D = (X+81)*1.375 = 111.375 + 1.375X
AS = Y/100
APS = (1+Y/100)/BAT

DPS = (111.375 + 1.375X)(1+Y)/BAT

MKB: +88 damage + 15 AS
+100 damage 35% of the time = +35 damage per hit

MKB in reality = 88+35 = 123 damage per hit

Post-MKB damage
D = X+123
AS = (Y+15)/100
APS = (1.15 + Y/100)/BAT

DPS = (X+123)(1.15+Y/100)/BAT

Solving for X and Y

DPS output of MKB and Daedalus are the same when:

MKB - Daedalus
(X+123)(1.15+Y/100)/BAT = (111.375+1.375X)(1+Y/100)/BAT
(X+123)(115 + Y) = (111.375+1.375X)(100 + Y)

115X + XY + 14145 + 123Y = 11137.5 + 111.375Y + 137.5X + 1.375XY

3007.5 + 11.625Y = 22.5X + 0.375XY
30075 + 116.25Y = 225X + 3.75XY
120300 + 465Y = 900X + 15XY
8020 + 31Y = 60X + XY
8020 + 31Y = X(Y + 60)

(31Y + 8020)/(Y + 60) = X

If X > (31Y+8020)/(Y+60) buy Daedalus
If X < (31Y+8020)/(Y+60) buy MKB

Random example (note: BAT is not accounted for but it doesn't really matter):
Viper deals 200 damage per attack and has 200 AS.

(323)(1.15+2) ? (386.375)(1+2)
1017.45 < 1159.125

Daedalus gives more DPS

for example, viper deals 100 damage per attack and has 200 AS
(223)(3.15) ? (248.875)(3)
702.45 < 746.625

Daedalus gives more DPS

for example, deals 100 damage per attack and has 100 AS
(223)(2.25) ? (248.875)(2)
501.75 > 497.75

MKB gives more DPS

Conclusion: We all know that Daedalus sucks at low base damage levels.

If you do 100 damage per attack, at what AS does it not matter between MKB and Daedalus?

(223)(1.15 + Z/100) = (248.875)(1 + Z/100)
256.45 + 2.23Z = 248.875 + 2.48875Z
7.575 = .25875Z
29.275 = Z

So if you have 29 AS better to get MKB... and at 30 AS better to get Daedalus?

(223)(1.15+.29) ? (248.875)(1+.29)
321.12 > 321.04875

(223)(1.15+.3) ? (248.875)(1+.3)
323.35 < 323.5375

If you do 75 damage per attack, at what AS does it not matter between MKB and Daedalus?
(198)(1.15 + Z/100) = (214.5)(1+Z/100)
227.7 + 1.98Z = 214.5 + 2.145Z
13.2 = .165Z
80 = Z

Note:IAS=increased attack speed
So if you have 79 IAS better to get MKB and at 81 IAS better to get Daedalus.

(198)(1.15+.79) > (214.5)(1+.79)
384.12 > 383.955

(198)(1.96) < (214.5)(1.81)
388.08 < 388.245

Fan of right-click heroes here. :)

I'm relatively new on Dota2 so I definitely fit the "Beginner - Intermediate" pub gamer. I will defo try this build. Just a question, why not get a crit item?

Good guide, i like the fact that the guide is impronted for inexperienced people, i have some disagree with the corrosive skin, but i think it's not an argument the "beginner guide", you describe the correct playstyle.

Something on the late game part, if you feel you're going late and you're start to falling down, and hopefully you have some real hard carry in your team sniper/medusa (even drow is fine, just to list the more common), i think it is a viable solution to switch to the tank role (agh/HoT/bkb) and to be the sacrificial lamb for your team, staing in front, soaking up all the enemy damage (even dying is fine) but letting the others clean the enemy team.

This is not the A-plan, but things often don't go as you expect!XD

(i would like to have explain my ideas better but my English is quite rusty as for now!)

I agree with Hamstertamer, he is usually played as an all out right clicker where he in my opinion turns into a glass cannon or the Tanky Viper with mek heart etc. Where he does very little damage but can be used as meat shield and slows enemies. This seems like being a little bit of both worth getting a shot IMO.

I am surprised that corrosive skin isn't leveled up earlier and more than it is in the early lvl's

Guys, guys, I think the author made it clear that Viper can't go into late game against usual carries, and that he needs to end the game before 45 minutes by using the pushing power of the hero. So since he said that, don't go arguing about the "hard carry" stuff. What he meant was that he can be played either as a right-click carry or as a more utility style tanky hero.

And honestly I can't blame him for not going Aghs, item has no scaling whatsoever and we're not in deathball doto anymore :)

I have a hard tie believing that Viper could be a true hard carry. A carry, maybe a semi-carry yes. but he has virtually nothing to farm creeps, and therefore, much gold.

Viper hard carry...pff i have heard enough

No Aghanim's Scepter?