Vesuvius was born with a path of greatness looming over him. Son of Zeus; the King of Gods and a mortal woman, Vesuvius's life was destined for heroism and glory at every turn. Living with his mortal mother Alcmene, he lived a fairly standard life in a large city and enjoyed life as any young boy of the time. At age 9 he showed natural talent towards hand to hand combat, being on even footing after a few years with the most skilled combatants in his town. At age 13 his mother sent him to a temple of monks, in order to bolster his body and mind. Vesuvius quickly rose to the top of the monastery as his skills were unmatched for his age, however, so was his temper, as every fight he lost would light fire in his eyes and a burning in his chest. One day at the age of 18, now a seasoned martial artist, one of the masters of the temple grew ill. It quickly spread to other members, and within two weeks, he was the last survivor, most likely spared due to his demi-godly body. Vesuvius's fury was so vile, that it brought out Zeus's power, enveloping him in a thick, black smoke that now controlled most of his body. When he returned home, as a solid black skinned entity, his mother fled from him, as did the city goers. His rage unleashed, he devastated the town with his powers, killing and absorbing every city dweller. Upon snapping out of his anger he had realized what he had done, and had come to realize that Zeus's powers were to blame. He now travels on, the lone survivor of his anger; on a tirade against Zeus and any other god he deems responsible for his path.
COMPLEXITY
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CARRY
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SUPPORT
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NUKER
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INITIATOR
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DISABLER
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STR
22 + 3.0
AGI
15 + 2.1
INT
19 + 2.4
Base Damage: 52-58
Movement Speed: 305
Armor: 4
Vision: 1800/800
Attack Range: 150
Attack Animation: 0.3 + 0.5
Base Attack Time: 1.5
Base Magic Resistance: 25%
Turn Rate: 0.52
Aghs Upgrade: Spears fully pierce heroes and the range of each spear is increased to 8000, this also allows stacks to remain on multiple targets.
For now I believe he is in a decent condition for the upcoming contest, and unless something suddenly hits me, I'l probably just be doing stat growth / lore / Mana and Cooldown changes to him, as well as fixing up some grammar in some areas. Thanks for the feedback my dudes
Maybe reducing the respawn time/gold loss of heroes killed by the ultimate is one way of balancing it especially since deaths in the late game have a large impact on the direction the game is going.
The insta-kill is really something I feel like I can work around to not make broken, especially since its what the entire kit was based around for me. I figured it would be an execute that dealt 100% of the targets hp as pure, which means it would go through Aeon and Grave. Blademail I suppose would just deal all of the damage to Vesuvius, so possibly just instantly killing him.
Thanks for your talent tree suggestion, feels better to me than just giving him a good int growth for a str hero.
So, Spears of Entropy. The ability to instakill an enemy hero is a huge no in my books. Sure, it's on a skillshot, but the problem with skillshots is that they still work in melee range, and with enough stuns on your team you can simply slaughter 2 enemy heroes in 6 seconds, 4 in 12 seconds if you have Refresher. Black Hole and Chrono comes to mind since the debuff reduction should not work on those, and even without them, this hero has 2 mobility skills to let him better position himself to land his spears.
Ignoring that part of the skill, you mentioned a combo involving that skill and his Q. If you want to make that a combo you have to remove the speed scaling and +speed talent of the skill, because if the spear moves too fast it will be too far out of range to pull it off once, let alone twice.
Given how the mana cost increases, the range hardly matters since you are mostly going to be in the thick of things, and increasing the speed is a downgrade given how it locks you out of one of your combos, there still is no reason to level it past Level 1.
My suggestion is to axe the instakill portion of that ability and replace it with something else. Flat damage is not that good of an option, unfortunately, because that would just be swapping out one instakill with another. You could go with that if you reduce the number of charges or increase the amount of time between throws though.
Okay so, the part about things like bhole and chrono. When I considered this ultimate I hastily considered these two abilties, and I almost added something to stop this from being an extremely good synergy. However, unless the black hole or chrono catches five enemies, I feel like there is enough counter play to stop him from just chucking 10 spears at people, as throwing ten spears would take 6 seconds and throwing five would take 3 obviously. Personally, I feel like with orchid, hex, stuns in general, as well as just being able to walk in front of a thrown spear as well any other things im not considering right now, make it not an absurdly broken combo. If five enemies get caught in a chrono or black hole late game, most likely two or more heroes would die regardless of if its instant or not.
Anyways, thats my reasoning when it comes to balancing this ability. Whats funny is that it seems to be very polarizing with literally half of the people ive talked to thinking its broken, and the other half thinking it would need to be buffed because of the delay between spears and all the counterplay available to it. I really appreciate your comment and il definitely go over some things that would help, like maybe turning down the speed a little bit to enable easier juking or taking spears for people. Thanks once again.
That's why there are some things that are just in general impossible to design around, instakill being one of them. They are just simply either too strong to the point of being absolutely broken, or too weak to the point of being near useless, and there is simply no way to tell which is which until you do some playtesting with them. Hence why my suggestion is to swap out the instakill portion of the skill to something easier to balance and scale.
BKB stops a lot of those counterplays, and if there is a Black Hole or Chronosphere up it is highly unlikely that someone can actually walk in between him and his target. Also if people walking in front of your spears do become a problem, unless I am understanding it incorrectly, your Aghs upgrade solves that issue for you.
General tip for a bit more clarity. You could use 'CHARGE REPLENISH TIME' instead of cooldown to better indicate that the spell uses charges.
What does the stated range on Q mean? Cast range? Throw range? Both? Can E damage and stun multiple enemies?
A few questions on the W. Can you attack as well as cast spells and are you vulnerable during the 1.5 second cloud duration? Does the 850 unit thing mean you gain up to 850 attack range while on the cloud? What does crashing into the chosen enemy mean? Does it mean you dash to the target then deal damage?
Does landing a spear on a target refresh the 9 second duration for the previous spears? Why does Spears of Entropy's mana cost increase per level when the only other thing that increases is max charges? It feels fundamentally awkward and rather silly that I'm paying much more mana, 15x5 = 75 extra mana per level minimum to kill someone with equal strength. I'm not saying extra max charges is useless but to be frank, I wouldn't level this past 1 until I have enough mana. His mana pool is already horrendous for a hero so focused on combos. When all abilities are max level, 2 charges of each basic ability and 5 charges of the ult are used, it would cost a total of 1065 mana. At level 18, you only have a base 723 mana. And this doesn't even consider all the reduced cooldowns you get from landing spears and the remaining spear charges. So take these calculations how you will.
How does the level 20 Smoke Nimbus talent interact with the fact that before Aghanim's Scepter, adding a stack removes all other stacks from other targets? Or would this talent not work against an enemy who currently has no spears?
The Q Range is the Range they would be thrown, il edit it to clarify so thanks for that.
The W is worded pretty poorly, I plan on fixing that up in a moment. Yes you would be able to cast spells on the cloud and you are vulnerable as normal. 850 would be the theoretical max for the crashing into someone after issuing an auto attack on them. Yeah crashing was just a fancier word than dash, since you and nimbus would fly into the enemy together, figured it was a nice little flavor thing lol.
Alright so the ult. Landing a spear would refresh the entire 9 seconds stack timer. The mana cost is a bit of a dumb move on my part, il be fixing that up shortly as I kind of did the ult stats in a bit of hurry, I.E the mana cost and charges per level. I think im going to change the max charges to 10 at all levels and scale up the speed and distance so that you really feel the new levels of your ult, they should be valuable and right now they simply aren't. Yes his mana and int growth need to be sorted out somehow, since he certainly isnt intended to buy arcanes etc. I think im going to move his str growth down and sort of almost equalize his int and str almost, as my original intention for this hero was to be a strength hero who doesn't necessarily naturally bulk up, he was meant to be more nimble with almost active mitigation if you will.
The Smoke Nimbus would be a bit of an anomaly but my plan would be for it to not care about other spear stacks and just stack it on the target anyway, even if spears were on another hero already.
Sorry for this mega-poorly-formatted wall of text. But thank you so much for your input!
Personally, I don’t feel his combos are that nuanced or have that many uses. You have 2 dashes but you would always only use them before or after Q since dashing during the abduction is usually detrimental. I get the point of this interaction is to stop abuse, but then why leave the option available? Also, you would always W then E since this combo puts you in range for the low-range stun and provides a boost to defense, whereas E then W doesn’t really provide anything special. Many uses? Eh, everything just helps him get in close to kill people and he doesn’t provide much else to his team. Nuanced? Eh, W’s wall literally asks E to dash through it. I think it’s a far more creative and interesting kit than most others, but I don’t agree that with some of the statements. Am I nit-picking too much? Yes, because I was expecting more. So, I’ll provide some suggestions that I think could give him more combo potential and make him shine even more:
Leave Vile Abduction’s cast range and throw range at a static 300. Dashing during Vile Abduction will throw the target in the opposite direction of the dash at double the throw range. What this means is that now normally, your catch potential is still there but not too strong, especially since you mainly want Q to reposition enemies to hit with R. But if you want to really throw someone far away from their team, you have the option now by dashing potentially away from your team and into danger, a fair trade-off. This still means you can’t exactly kidnap people easily like Lasso but is a more interesting solution where you also have more control.
Make Smoke Nimbus’ attack range 500 from 850 and make Demigod’s Charge range 750 from 400. Currently, I think W is just superior at first closing the gap because it not only gives the flying movement but also the large range attack jump. Meanwhile initiating with E currently doesn’t make sense because it’s range so short. By exchanging the ranges, now you actually have a choice when it comes to starting fights. Go for the more creative pathing with W first to follow up with the charge for survivability or go for the quick and safer disabling dash.
If Smoke Nimbus is cast within 1.5 seconds of stunning or killing a hero, it provides undetectable invisibility for its duration. This one is less nuanced than I’d like but is still pretty interesting. Yes, now it obviously makes dashing in with E before W far more enticing if you hit someone. But also, Vesuvius is like Necrophos in that he is great at securing last hits on heroes, so let’s also reward him for doing it with either a quick escape or an opportunity to keep going. This one I’m more on the fence about so doesn’t need to be considered as much, but I just want to put it out there.
Remove the damage from Smoke Nimbus. Add damage to Vile Abduction. W is currently a very overloaded spell. It gives mobility in the flying movement and a targeted dash, flying vision to scout and reveal targets to attack dash onto and creates a wall that can not only destroy spell projectiles but also give him bonus defenses. On top of that, it puts him in melee range for what is essentially a guaranteed R stack. Especially since you want to instantly kill that target with R anyways so their health doesn’t matter, does this spell also really need to damage the target? I’m not necessarily talking about balance, but more that does it need to conceptually be so crowded? If you do go ahead with the Vile Abduction changes earlier, then that means the spell has less scaling potential and more damage could be fitted in here, especially since I can assume the Q itself won’t damage the main target. Something like 70/140/210/280?
I do think I overdid smoke nimbus a little bit as an ability, so I cut its damage off by more than 50% and cut the range to 500 like you suggested. 750 Range on his E felt a liiiitle bit big so I reduced it to 700 and removed the extra range talent at level 15 and replaced it with the level 10 absorb duration talent.
I did pretty much copy and paste your text for smoke nimbus's invis, hope you're okay with that but I think it really adds to a nimble hard to kill fighter whos difficulty in dying doesn't come purely from bulking up naturally, so I think thats a beautiful addendum.
Maybe conceptually the Aghanim's is too much as it completely removes one of the main counterplays of the ult. Especially since he really doesn't need many items to come online and he can just rush a Scepter quickly, so that's something to consider. Maybe replace the Aghanim's upgrade with the level 20 Smoke Nimbus talent? It's a pretty situational upgrade since not every enemy team will have a lot of projectiles, and being situational is what Aghanim's Scepter should ideally be. Currently, I see almost no reason not to get it for the aforementioned reason of removing its big weakness, not even for the 8000 range although that is pretty funny.
All in all, I hope you keep the insta-kill mechanic as you keep making him better and possibly more balanced. Don't know if I have much else to add to his mechanics so this might be the end of my feedbacks for now, so I just wish you good luck. A lot of people harp on balance a lot eventhough it makes no sense since we can't test any of these and it can get overwhelming, so I hope you'll keep at it. Cheers.
I do definitely see what you mean with the aghs but like we said, without play-testing, its just too hard to tell if it would be broken with it, or complete **** without it. I think the reflective talent for Smoke Nimbus is a little situational for a level 20 talent but I don't think it needs to be changed just yet, I'l see what comes to mind.
I do, above all else, plan on keeping the insta-kill mechanic as there hasn't ever been one in a moba and I feel Dota would be the perfect fit for such a ridiculous sounding concept. I too wish you good luck with all of your future concepts, whichever you may work on next. Thanks for your time :).