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Following a discussion on Bristleback, I now wonder how many people think that Bristleback cannot carry.
I have had a lot of success with Bristleback. I usually go to the hard lane to contest the carry, but I will go to the mid-lane if we don't have a hero that needs the midlane. I get Bottle on him either way, and I play very aggressive and try to secure kills. With the right laning partner, I usually get a couple during the laning stage. In the mid-game, I get Power Threads for the attack speed boost and I head out to a lane to push it out. Quill Spray spam can clear several creep waves very quickly, and my farm will be out of control. When the lane pushes too far, I move to another lane as well. I go for an Armlet of Mordiggian next to make life for difficult for my enemies, then a Yasha followed by a Sange. At this point in the game, I will be actively participating in fights whenever possible, and my damage is also enough to melt many enemies down. Following that, I get a Basher and maybe a Heart of Tarrasque if I need more tankiness. Usually, the game ends once I finish my heart. Some other possible items would be a Daedalus or Monkey King Bar if I need raw damage, and Assault Cuirass is a great alternative to Sange and Yasha.
Even though you may argue that anything is possible in a pub-match, I suggest that you try it out, its really fun :)
Drum is something I always get on him, and it helps him out so much. Everyone else rushes Vanguard/Treads, etc. But Drum gives him movespeed that stacks well with his ulti, and general stats, of which, the intelligence fixes his mana problems for the most part.
He isn't a great carry, but more of a decent semi-carry that can potentially carry mid game if he gets fed. Late game he just doesn't have the skillset to compete with other carries, but he can still be tanky as hell and a huge nuisance for the enemy team.
I think it depends on your definition of a carry. You could make an argument purely based off the current meta by saying that there are only a handful of carrys your anti-mage, gyrocopter, alchemist, etc. Carrys who largely if not wholly depend on farming to become carrys. In my opinion this is a rather narrow definition of a carry. You then have a whole other bracket of carrys who aren't flash farmers and depend much more on early kills to get their levels and gold, Viper, Bounty Hunter, etc. I would put Bristle in this second category, no less of a carry than the other bracket in my mind, just different. What makes them less effective is the quality of the opponent they are facing where you cannot count on getting those early kills you need so desperately. I definitely see Atlas' point of view when calling him a semi-carry. However, to call him a semi-carry would put him in the same bracket as almost all other heroes. The exceptions to who isn't a semi-carry (e.g. a hero that has the potential to carry a game) may be even smaller than the previously mentioned definition of who is a carry. I mean a whole host of supports are semi-carrys Lich, Bane, Disruptor, Treeant, etc, etc can all be described as semi-carrys. So to call him a semi-carry is in my opinion too wide a definition. I take Atlas' point about his time being mid game, but isn't that also true of Sven? For me he belongs in the carry bracket as he should be built that way, however if he doesn't get those early kills or if there are better carries on the team who are doing better then he should be the first to adapt into a utility role. A fantastic mek carrier with arcane boots I would have thought. Perhaps we need a new bracket, a Carry-Semi, for carrys who aren't always great at carrying.
Anyway I like the idea of medallion and drums on him, especially drums. One thing I do slightly differently on him compared to a lot of guides and the way I've seen others play him is getting a crystalis>Daedlus fairly early, sometimes just leaving it at crystalis if there are more important items. It just makes so much sense to me given the added damage from his ulti. Can anyone tell me why they are not seen as core items? I also sometimes will get a Battlefury on him, one of the few heroes I really like this item on*. The mana is great of course for the even more spell spammage, the RoH is a really nice early game item for him and BF also helps him with his slightly less than excellent farming potential.
*I really don't get a BF on many heroes not even anti-mage, but that's a whole other conversation.
Drum is something I always get on him, and it helps him out so much. Everyone else rushes Vanguard/Treads, etc. But Drum gives him movespeed that stacks well with his ulti, and general stats, of which, the intelligence fixes his mana problems for the most part.
He isn't a great carry, but more of a decent semi-carry that can potentially carry mid game if he gets fed. Late game he just doesn't have the skillset to compete with other carries, but he can still be tanky as hell and a huge nuisance for the enemy team.
Well, the reason why I didn't get those 2 items in that particular game was because I was the hardest carry in my team ( Viper being the next best). The Viper was ganking so much with the Venomancer, and all I had to do was tag along with them and we get kills anyway. In a normal game, if I am not the main carry, I will definitely get Medallion of Courage and Drum of Endurance, and gank a lot to snowball into the lategame.
I reason why I like Bristleback as a carry is because he is very difficult to kill and very difficult to deny, because he peaks very early on (when he hits levels 7 and gets his ultimate + maxes quill spray), and because of Bristleback, which can cause your enemies much trouble if you're Armlet toggling.
I think it depends on your definition of a carry. You could make an argument purely based off the current meta by saying that there are only a handful of carrys your anti-mage, gyrocopter, alchemist, etc. Carrys who largely if not wholly depend on farming to become carrys. In my opinion this is a rather narrow definition of a carry. You then have a whole other bracket of carrys who aren't flash farmers and depend much more on early kills to get their levels and gold, Viper, Bounty Hunter, etc. I would put Bristle in this second category, no less of a carry than the other bracket in my mind, just different. What makes them less effective is the quality of the opponent they are facing where you cannot count on getting those early kills you need so desperately. I definitely see Atlas' point of view when calling him a semi-carry. However, to call him a semi-carry would put him in the same bracket as almost all other heroes. The exceptions to who isn't a semi-carry (e.g. a hero that has the potential to carry a game) may be even smaller than the previously mentioned definition of who is a carry. I mean a whole host of supports are semi-carrys Lich, Bane, Disruptor, Treeant, etc, etc can all be described as semi-carrys. So to call him a semi-carry is in my opinion too wide a definition. I take Atlas' point about his time being mid game, but isn't that also true of Sven? For me he belongs in the carry bracket as he should be built that way, however if he doesn't get those early kills or if there are better carries on the team who are doing better then he should be the first to adapt into a utility role. A fantastic mek carrier with arcane boots I would have thought. Perhaps we need a new bracket, a Carry-Semi, for carrys who aren't always great at carrying.
Anyway I like the idea of medallion and drums on him, especially drums. One thing I do slightly differently on him compared to a lot of guides and the way I've seen others play him is getting a crystalis>Daedlus fairly early, sometimes just leaving it at crystalis if there are more important items. It just makes so much sense to me given the added damage from his ulti. Can anyone tell me why they are not seen as core items? I also sometimes will get a Battlefury on him, one of the few heroes I really like this item on*. The mana is great of course for the even more spell spammage, the RoH is a really nice early game item for him and BF also helps him with his slightly less than excellent farming potential.
*I really don't get a BF on many heroes not even anti-mage, but that's a whole other conversation.
My definition of "Carry" is a hero whose attack damage scales very well into the lategame. For example, Anti-Mage is a carry because he has a base attack time of 1.45. This makes him hit like a beast, increasing his damage output substantially. I think Bristleback is a carry because his damage from level 3 Warpath hurts so much, that if you don't capitalize on attack speed to maximize damage, then you can't do much other than tank damage with Bristleback. Smart players will know to focus your teammates down quickly instead of attacking you. But if you have high damage output, it would still be difficult to kill you (thanks to Bristleback), but now you have a significantly-increased threat level to the opponent. If they attack you, your teammates will attack them, and if they attack your teammates, then you go in a bash their heads in.
I agree if you buy that items on bristleback can carry. But how "carry" you are depens on how many item dependant you are. And bristleback can be effective with just power threads and vanguard till late game.
Just be wary, if there's a naix, sk, or Slardar you may want to avoid Bristleback...Slardar powers your av and bashes the **** out of you, Skeleton king has lifesteal, crits, and gets back up, naix will just eat you.
Step 1: Pick Bristleback
Step 2: type in all chat:"GL hf"
Step 3: solo offlane
Step 4: first blood triple kill solo vs trilane
Step 5: continue head butting keyboard
Step 6: don't care, Bristleback doesn't give a ****
Step 7: screenshot repeated: BB OP comments in all chat
Step 8: alternate games with Slark pick
The main issue with bristleback is that there are so many better carries out there.
Assuming you are going a 3 core trilane setup, where do you put bristleback?
Reading over his abilities again, and about how good at chasing he is, why not look at him for mid? He fits the melee mid criteria (spammable Aoe for last hitting, disable, able to man up vs a ranged hero and level dependant)
Rush bottle so you can keep on spamming spells, he benefits from most runes and if you can catch someone out of position (jungle or even pushed up in lane) his slow should let you get the gank off on someone.
He is my favourite pickup when someone grabs rikki. Back strike and I out DPS him while he's wailing on me :D
Just be wary, if there's a naix, sk, or Slardar you may want to avoid Bristleback...Slardar powers your av and bashes the **** out of you, Skeleton king has lifesteal, crits, and gets back up, naix will just eat you.
I don't think Lifestealer is a problem, because you have low strength and strength gain, meaning that he won't have a lot of health to steal from you. His Rage doesn't block Quill Spray either, since its physical damage, and its quite easy to kite him too.
The main issue with bristleback is that there are so many better carries out there.
Assuming you are going a 3 core trilane setup, where do you put bristleback?
Reading over his abilities again, and about how good at chasing he is, why not look at him for mid? He fits the melee mid criteria (spammable Aoe for last hitting, disable, able to man up vs a ranged hero and level dependant)
Rush bottle so you can keep on spamming spells, he benefits from most runes and if you can catch someone out of position (jungle or even pushed up in lane) his slow should let you get the gank off on someone.
He is my favourite pickup when someone grabs rikki. Back strike and I out DPS him while he's wailing on me :D
Yes, there are better carries, and in competitive, I'd only put Bristleback in a tri-lane if we were going for some early push strategy. Otherwise, the only other option is to get him to solo-mid.
The rest of your points I agree with completely. Bristleback is such a beast :D
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Step 2: type in all chat:"GL hf"
Step 3: solo offlane
Step 4: first blood triple kill solo vs trilane
Step 5: continue head butting keyboard
Step 6: don't care, Bristleback doesn't give a ****
Step 7: screenshot repeated: BB OP comments in all chat
Step 8: alternate games with Slark pick
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