Agility Heroes Like Clinkz are Inferior

If strength is the counter to intelligence then please explain Lifestealer And if agility counters strength please explain Viper who counters everyone. As Atlas said it isnt Rock paper Scissors. Its not that simple. It works like nukers counter squishies, tanks counter nukers, disablers can counter carrys and carry's can solo teams. Strength beats this etc is complete ****. There are non-intel heros who are heavy casters like Pudge and Venomancer or Axe. And some intelligence heros rely on mostly auttoattacks like Storm Spirit. Its not attributes that counter eachother. Its each heros abilities/role. Clinkz role is an early game assassin-anti jungler and with sufficient farm can progress to hard carry. If you really cannot grasp that concept then play another hero. This entire thread is completely pointless.

Itemization, different stat gains, and the fact that almost all heroes have nukes and only even a few intelligence heroes are burst heavy.

http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guide/clinkz-eastwood-basic-guide-328

Read this.

Why do I need to take magic damage? I could just stop them from casting their spells(disables) or be immune to spells(bkb/omniknight repel).




Ahhh, yes it is exactly as you said, though this poor design is what made the game good.


You seem to keep comparing Dota 2 to starcraft and rpg elements to whole of dota. You should meet Nature's Prophet, Earthshaker and Ursa you'd find them, interesting.


Protip, ditch Clinkz and play Medusa. She's the tankiest agi you can find.

Ok so clinkz has the spell strafe.

If an opponent gets a hood of defiance which reduces damage from spells by 30% are they reducing damage from strafe by 30% on every attack while it is active?

Searing arrow is also known as "physical" damage which means that the damage dealt is based on the opponent's armor... does a hood of defiance even further reduce damage from searing arrow on top of armor?

Apparently there is no place for a hood of defiance at all against clinkz... Whether we are talking about nuke spells, damage bursts, or magic damage over time... clinkz doesn't have a magical attack what so ever and that is pretty much just flat ******ed. I don't think the game designers are that stupid.

Surely there is actually a philosophy of design that takes in to account the function of all heros.

Protip: Ditch a character if it isn't as good as another

That's a bit degrading to the term professional and those who are labeled as such.

Not sure if this thread should continue, DotA is not like Starcraft, while similar in some aspects of the game it's more complicated than that. The points you're trying to make have been done in pubs long before LoL/HoN/DOTA2 were being made. It was clear being a tanky Clinkz with a bit of damage didn't work since Clinkz needed that crazy single target damage and there were other ways he can survive.

Clinkz is an assassin type of carry, there's no other way to go about it. Most agility carries are either the hard-hitting semi-carry like Shadow Fiend or a midlate-late game insurance card. Agility heroes will always outdo more damage than strength and int heroes towards the later stages of the game.

It's not about attribute vs attribute, it's all about the heroes vs another hero, that's where one of the core gameplay comes in. Team composition, strategy, etc. It's not as simple as attr vs attr and I still don't understand why you're continuing to stay AGI is inferior. There are pro and cons to all heroes and you cannot just lockdown on one type of hero and say they're inferior.

If this pointless circle-jerk continues with pointless arguments about game-design etc then I'll have the mod/admin lock this thread. It's clear you don't know this game well and you ignore what some people say and ask/talk about something else which is blatantly clear if you've played long enough or did a bit of google research. Your whole arguement is that if it was a straight up 5v5 where both parties charge at each other, this is not some battle of troy thing.

Btw why don't you link some of the games you've played clinkz with and we'll see what's wrong.

Nubtrain, your failure to acknowledge well made points is plain. You are not open minded one single bit and this sort of igorance needs to stop on forums, otherwise, none of us will progress our understanding of what clearly are controversial issues. My advice is to stop ruining it for the rest of us because if people understood and played the game properly we might actually give meaningful feedback on these games to better the future.

With that said, where are YOUR replays with clinkz? I'm talking about a combination of things here while you are just singling me out for agility alone... that's simply not fair.

When you say "It was clear that a tanky clinkz with a bit more damage didn't work" what are you even refering too?

I can understand to a degree why the game is based on hero vs hero... but do you know why the game is designed like that? It's so that all heros can seem as different as possible... But in regard to core gameplay, this is foolish design.

To a degree it can be hero vs hero and to a degree it can and should, and needs to be generalized because we want to play a game based in improvizational skill, not a nerds one way burden... there is absolutely no enjoyment in that on the competative level.

Like I said time and time again which you fail to acknowledge, agility heros like clinkz, the ones that are least tank are simply at a disadvantage... There is no incentive for any one of the 3 types of heroes to go strictly down an attribute that is not of their own aside from clinkz himself (which I explained earlier)

Intellegence heroes spam spells, agility does hardly anything for survival unless you get life steal to function with the faster attack speed which is exactly why my build makes sense and works... and strength chars take loads of magic damage.

Clinkz is a low life agility hero and is forced to start strength first in most cases and make meaningful use out of those items collectively in cooperation with his prime ability skeleton walk.

Denial is a drug and to deny that strength heros take more damage from intellegence heroes and agility heros take more damage from strength heros is more then denial, it is denial of blaitantly obvious facts.

My best advice is that you seek medical help immediately for mental treatment.

Why say someone else is delusional to points already made when you haven't read a single thing anyone has put in this thread. :|

Also, Nubtrain, Agi carries don't always exceed Str carries in damage either. I fully farmed Tiny can take on most Agi carries, as can a farmed Sven or CK.

Same goes for you, your first issue you brought up was to bring some different/creative gameplay to Clinkz since you find him not-on par with other heroes as you said here:



You offered your own idea on how to play Clinkz with Empower, Mask of Madness and Crystalys but we argued that not only is there a problem with building MoM, it could also be your playstyle.



It's clear with this that you don't know Clinkz's role very well even though I've said he was an assassin and has a similar playstyle to Nyx Assassin. Strafe boosts his attack speed to get as many Searing Arrows into the enemy as possible. Some Clinkz players will get Medallion of Courage for the early mana regen and +/- armor. Most heroes don't have a lot of armor and health so a single stun will secure a kill for you. When you finally get your Orchid Malevolence, you deal 25% more damage when they're silenced so you'll deal further damage and nobody is able to deal with that unless you've positioned yourself terribly or you got stunned.

You also made a point about stats being inferior to the other stats, that really depends on the heroes you play. If you're Clinkz the +AGI is fine, there is no problem with that, you get whatever health from Death Pact and that's all the health you need. It's not so black and white where AGI vs STR and then the STR will always win, you factor in your positioning, if you've dodged their spells, movement, timings, predictions, etc. You master each hero to learn their pros and cons and use it to your advantage, that's what really matters in competitive games. You then come up with strategies with these heroes to win.



That's why there is League of Legends, you can click the big red play button and pick Blind Draft. Although... are you serious? In any competitive game, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to know everything, even League of Legends has that criteria, it's the nature of this type of game.

We're not saying you cannot build strength items on AGILITY heroes but we're saying that for Clinkz you don't need to build strength items since Skeleton Walk and Death Pact is what helps him survive. If there is a lot of casters, you then think "Oh I'll need a BKB", which isn't hard to understand since you were addressing his squish.



You also get att.damage along with the crit chance, you don't rely on the crit to be effective, Daedulas provides the highest amount of damage to gain for Clinkz other than Divine Rapier. 33% is big difference, even if you've lowered the proc damage, you'll be doing a lot more damage in a short period of time.

What if you got CC'd in a teamfight? With that item build you thought up earlier, it is then meaningless because you wouldn't be able to 1: Survive it 2: You couldn't have dealt as much damage as you could have 3: The lifesteal is then useless

Your job as Clinkz is to find someone and kill them before they know it.



What the other guy said is true, that's smells of total hypocrisy



That's the only role he can fulfill, if he cannot do so then what's the point of picking him, if you weren't going to pick Clinkz for his damage, then you would pick someone else instead. His biggest advantage is that he can deal a ton of single target damage, pick players off easily and do very good tower damage. All of Clinkz assets tells me that he relies on his stealth and damage. With an Orchid Malevolence, he can take on anyone 1v1 and that's what he seeks, a lone hero farming/roaming somewhere.



I've said this before, it's about hero vs hero not about a prime attribute vs anothers. In that essence, Nyx Assassin would have a terrible time with heroes like Leshrac based off that logic. It's all about hero design and what that specific hero brings to the table along with your skill-level.



That pretty much confirms that you don't have a solid understanding of the game, Searing Arrow is physical if it wasn't, it wouldn't work on towers. Hood of Defiance is situational, depends on the team comp, one builds it and then turns it into pipe if there was a lot of magic damage going on.



Oh I've read them, you fail to realize that you don't have a solid understanding of the game and you're putting forth your own ideas as a savior to Clinkz. For one, it's not controversial, you're just making pointless arguments about how Clinkz should be played when discussions of this were done in the old dota-allstars forum. You're not even considering what other people have said and when one apparently agrees on a single point you express it. It's pretty clear with the pro and cons of Clinkz is he that he's a total glass-cannon, if you want to build health ok but you'll get enough from Death Pact. A signle Drums of Endurance is not enough to survive, so you've delayed your core for bit of extra strength.



and I've responded that DOTA and all games that are similar are not so black and white. There are roles, playstyles, how you've positioned yourself, who've you targeted first, etc but you ignore that and make it a clear black and white problem.

Some intellegence heroes can spam and provide utility but most lack survival since they don't start building that until late game. If they don't cast their spells, they're useless so that's why Clinkz is one of those heroes who deal with these int heroes rather well. They can also semi-carry depending on the hero

Some strength heroes are tanky, can initiate really well compared to other types but they wouldn't be dealing as much damage. Strengh heroes can also semi-carry or hard-carry like Sven which Atlas pointed out (totally forgot) but also have a lot of weaknesses. Can get kited, stunned, etc.

Agility heroes although they are squishy can dish out a lot of damage compared to the others in a shorter time frame. A lot of agility heroes have some sort of niche to win over others with it's an gap-closer/escape mechanism, utility, raw damage, for example Faceless Void with Chronosphere whom is considered the best hard-carry, Sniper with his long range and Assassinate, Weaver with Shukichi and Time Lapse, Shadow Fiend with his raw damage output. Agility heroes tend to rely a lot more on your own personal skill to win over another, that's why it's not recommended for new players to play agility heroes but that can also be said for a lot of other heroes in other prime attributes.

BUT as you can see there is so much diversity among all roles and its not confined to a black and white system. Every attribute can fulfill each role and you pick heroes for their assets not based on their prime attributes. Meaning, having a discussion about what stats are better than another is pointless.



Same goes for you, hypocrisy is an issue and tends to blind people to make themselves feel better, I'm worried about your future since...






Here's my match history for Clinkz, I don't have a lot of games under my belt with him in DOTA2 but I've played him for awhile already in DotA

https://dotabuff.com/players/33075429/matches?hero=clinkz&game_mode=&match_type=real

Care to link yours? When I asked you for some replays of Clinkz I wasn't trying to come off as a **** but clearly you took offense, if you wanted to have a discussion stick to it, don't try to insult another when they're bringing their points across


Btw how was I ruining it for others? I don't go around the forums trolling anyone or hurting anything unless it's justified