PLS:Help me some guys still think Scythe of Vyse is not legit on any hero

Once again - you can say this about every item in the game, "when the situation calls for it". But somehow these "situational" items aren't seen on a hero whatsoever. I know Dotabuff is usually n0t a source of a trustworthy stats that actually show something, but in this case it is, and if you take, for example, Sniper, out of 6m+ games played on him this month SoV was picked up in only 205, and it is unknown how many of those are troll builds or 0.1k MMR ultra-trench where nuking INT Sniper is the most imba hero in the game.

There is, and I listed it already, a whole set of heroes that SoV is not justifiable at all, and heroes that get it so extremely rarely SoV can't be even be called situational because if an item on a hero makes impact once in 500 games it is just simply not meant for this hero.

This item was good because of disable AND the fact there was no answer to Blink-Hex initiation apart from Diffusal Blade(which is carried by carries that are Hexed most of the time anyway) and dedicated heroes like Aba or LC. And it countered evasion. Now there is a new item that dispels it, an item that makes them almost impervious to magical damage even when Hexed and a new item that has in-built evasion(though it is not used by Hexed units most of the time). Welcome to 6.84, you can throw Scythe in the dumpster for even more heroes now until it gets buffed.

Yes, you can say it about most items in the game. Because in part that's how itemisation works in DOTA; You build for situations and for what the team needs. If you are buying items because it's what works best on your hero alone, you have room to work on your itemisation.

Snuggles gave a perfect example as to why it's justifiable on anything; He identified a situation that called for more lockdown, identified he was the only hero in a position to get it, got it on a hero you said is unjustifiable to get it on, and it made the exact impact required from it, and he won the game off of that pick-up.

Hell, it doesn't even have to act as the intation like some people think here; it just increases your chain disable and gives you more time to focus on a target, or remove a target from a fight for longer to allow you to win it.

I think this thread is more along the lines of "Hey guys, I already have my core items, and now I have a lot of gold that I need to spend. What is an item I should be getting?". The answer, in most cases would be a sheep stick.

It's not that Sheep should replace other core items or anything, but once any hero has the basic items that they need, utility items are the best picksup, and sheep is like the king of utility items - other ones being force staff, glimmer cape, eul's scepter, etc.

I get an impression I am taking to a wall. I'll go another way and say that if you see 3.5 seconds disable as an answer to most situations, YOU should be working on your builds. You keep saying that it is situational on every hero, where in fact there are heroes on whom Vyse makes no sense whatsoever. You lack damage to burst down SS as a Dragon Knight? Yes, definitely better get a much worse version of a skill DK already has instead of just getting enough damage DK naturally lacks. Smuggles just made the wrong choice that didn't cost him the game, that's good, but that doesn't mean Sheep is a "situational" item for DK.

Hex does much less than it did before 6.84, not saying it is overnerfed, but Vyse, as an item that is got almost exclusively for it's active, has to be buffed. It no longer has a 20 sec cd and makes enemy carry a beating doll, get over that "situational on every hero" logic, it now has a much narrower use and is not an answer to everything.

Wtf guys, how has this thread 4 pages? :D

Alright, alright, let me sum up my thoughts.

Scythe of Vyse is a good item. Much like Blink Dagger is a good item.

Scythe of Vyse is better on some heroes than others, much like how Blink Dagger on Tidehunter is better than Blink Dagger on Antimage.

There is really no situation where having a Scythe of Vyse is worse than having no items at all.

There is no situation where Scythe of Vyse is "bad," however, there are many situations where another item is a much better choice than Scythe of Vyse.

Different situations require certain items.

'tis the nature of DotA.

I mean, I've never said that I think 3.5s of disable is the solution to every problem in DOTA, because it's really not. If I thought that I'd say something silly like rush Sheep on every hero in the game. I am not trying to over-value the disable or anything like that.

I will admit I tend to value disables a little higher than I should because as you probably guessed before I focus a lot more on the competitive scene than like pubs and thus I assume a high level of co-ordination and communication; Which makes disables scarier, and bursting targets easier. So it's possible I'm still over-rating it a little.

And it's partly that creates that view, because in my view it is better to itemise for what the team needs most than what your hero needs most. Because the two aren't always one and the same as I'm sure you can accept. And because of that I consider it legit on more heroes than by rights should be there will be situations where you have more than enough damage on your team, you just lack control. I actually think that defines a lot of late game team-fights, but beside to point. And those are the sorts of situations where the Sheep pick-ups on unusual heroes happen.

Finally; An item not fitting neatly into your 6 slot doesn't mean you aren't going to pick-up it up to win or just have a change before that. It's similar to the situation where you pick-up like the casual Deso in base just for damage to help you try to win a fight to swing the game back around. You don't want to do it, but it's that or lose. (Yeah yeah, the situation where you have 5k gold spend on that whilst it's make or break is rare, but situations like it happen)

I guess I should refine it to 'Sheep is situational on most heroes and super situational on the rest' but that just doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well.

But again, itemisation in DOTA is weird; Something that's a god awful pick-up in 999 games might be just the thing in game 1000.

TL;DR - We disagree on what we consider situational. Or at least I'm willing to consider more abstract situations when I say situational. Also I'm pretty sure neither of us will give on our positions, since whilst I am willing to change my opinion on a lot of things, I'm set on this one

Even Scythe of Vyse on heroes like Abaddon, Centaur Warunner, Slark, Kunkka, Dragon Knight, Sven, and Chaos Knight.

OF COURSE you need your core items too, but Scythe of Vyse's disable and infinite mana is so good on so many heroes that it doesn't matter if you're STR, AGI, or INT.

I once played a game with a couple of my friends. I picked Wraith King and one of my friends picked Kunkka. I don't remember much of what transpired, much less the rest of the heroes, but I remember there was a Puck on the enemy team that was tearing through my team because only Kunkka and I had stuns, and really dodgeable stuns at that. None of our disables could hit Puck, not even X-mark because of his godly reflexes. So I told him "get a sheep". Now, the situation at the time was, I destroy all of Puck's teammates and he destroys mine. Then, he proceeds to kite me to death. In fact, he first fight we won against them was after Kunkka got the hex and locked down the Puck so I could smash his face in.



In the end, if the team requires an extra disable to win, then any member of the team who can afford sheepstick in time should buy it, though in most cases the #1 carries on the team should probably let their other teammates buy it unless it happens to be a hero like Storm Spirit or Outworld Devourer.